The Objective, Subjective & Dejected Thread

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I was a kit builder starting in the early 70’s and a music fan listening to the BSO and my fathers Quad ESL-57’s. Then became a jazz and rock guy and started working in a very cool college Stereo Coop. Started doing dual ADS 710’s, Advents, Cizek 1’s. Basically changing equipment as often underwear. Got bit by the Magnepan I and II bug - in the late 70’s but still using zip cord.

Got full on blown audiophile in the 80’s and into the 90’s. Worked for high end audio outfit for 2 years. Brought home everything - MC’s, electronics, but I modded a bunch of speakers (the most radical DQ-10’s ever, ProAc EBS, also made and sold subs). I quit to get a real job, and when I lost the easy and cheap access to equipment started hanging on to things.

Had a VPI TNT Jr w/ Clearaudio straight tracker and Koetsu’s for 20 years
Pass amps/pre-amps with a tube side trip for a bit for 30 years
ML CLS IIz for 10 years (w/ Gradient subs) then the Verity Parsifal for 15
Some upscale wire, but nothing insane.

Those were some very good systems.

So, I did lots of A/B blind testing and some ABX blind - but the hardware they use for the X really sucks.

I conclude that unless you have very difficult speaker loads (usually panels) that O2 free copper, with copper over gold spades (Vampire best)

I conclude that RCA cable is radically different in a room with lots of stone and concrete, I also find that balanced cable does not suffer the same problems, and being quieter, and in the case of the amps I used being better with balanced that’a what I use

I hated digital more than Neil Young ever did. TELARC direct to disc digital? Brutal. Early CD’s and players - gross. Then around 2002 I heard an ARC and KRELL CD player that were very musical - for the small pocket change they cost (over $20k each). Finally in 2015, heard the first two DAC’s that sounded great - the Gumby and Yggy. Sold off almost 10k pieces of vinyl and Clearaudio table.

Power cords? A dealer tried to suck me into one for $5. Brought over my used $250 core and it was a tie. I have heard them sound different but there is no hierarchy. Just a round robin - so my 1990 amp cable remains.

Now headphones. I have an affliction for HFM - so the cables, pads, head straps tend to suck. The HE-500 stock cable is awful. Any O2 free will do the job - and guess what they sound different, So does the HEX v2 and HE-6 SE v1

Cans with junk resolving power like the 4XX and X00 - cable doesn’t matter because they cannot resolve.

Mods on x-overs, tweeters in speakers. Pads, anti vibration aids, “fuzzor” for some planars, make a big difference.

Music playback is at this time the sum total of several parts and how they interact, Almost every amp and pre-amp are set up for a different load - few speakers except Maggies have flat curves. Nope just because the reviews are good doesn’t mean it’ll fit. Might mean its good enough to chase down a listen.
But just because it sounds good to you, is it really good? I listen to well recorded instruments, and knowing how they sound live or a very good system helps you decide, Just listening to the same non challenging music might be comfortable, but its not assurance of fidelity.

If you have room speakers, unless you are very lucky or know what you are doing you are losing a lot of fidelity to the room.

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I do recall the harsh TELARC early direct to disk. Made me hang on to DG Vinyl.

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Just as an FYI, you can quote comments and respond in a different thread by simply navigating to it with the comment open before you post

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The first one, yes it wouldn’t hold much water.

The second two, not at all! I’d 100% change my mind if there was an experiment or scientific data that validated the notion that they can perceivably affect sound. I said it’s settled because it’s seems very unlikely that such data can exist.

Sennheiser HE 1 - Official Thread
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Replying to you here, since it’s more appropriate.

While I do not share @orrman’s take on cables, we actually did a video recently demonstrating a situation where cables can in fact have an objective, measurable difference. That of course is when the headphone’s impedance is sufficiently low and the impedance curve is nonlinear (like with certain IEMs). This is similar to the effect of different output impedances from sources. So while in 99% of cases you don’t have any reason to care about cables - at least with respect to sound quality - it’s also false to suggest that there’s never a situation where it makes an objective, measurable or even audible difference.

Moreover, there are also cases where you can see very small measurable differences for the same reason, but at that point the question becomes, is it audible? To which the answer is… extremely unlikely.

So, bottom line… yeah they do have the potential to make a difference, but nobody should be going out buying them for sound quality reasons, unless you specifically know what the impedance relationship is.

Here’s the video in question:

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You absolutely don’t have to. And I respect your response just as much. I wrote in that other thread I don’t intend to start that discussion. It rarely leads to anything beneficial for anyone involved. But your response is a great example on how one can comment on the topic and keep it professional and contributing to discussion. I hope others learn from that.

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Was wondering how I could post in the appropriate thread while also replying to a comment. Thanks!

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Fair enough, I’ll concede that my initial blanket statement was wrong. That vid was really informative, thanks.

However, this raises the question: What is the impedance of the HE1, and what is the impedance of the cables being tested by the person I replied to.

And moreover, the more important question: Is someone who buys a custom cable and already believes that they hear a difference willing to change their mind if presented with data about their specific configuration that showcases either no or extremely minimal empirical differences?

Obviously, the answer to this question varies per person, but the portion that I take issue with is this statement: “…that discussion. It rarely leads to anything beneficial for anyone involved.”

If both parties aren’t already set in their beliefs, I don’t understand why this discussion wouldn’t lead to more information in net terms.

Further, if the relationship between cables and sound quality is an empirical one (one that depends on the impedance of the devices involved), wouldn’t that imply that this position isn’t a matter of having a “take on cables” but rather if you are willing or not willing to acknowledge evidence?

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You’ve sort of roped a lot of things into one here, and somewhat understandably since this is a common trajectory. What I find is that people will index for their experiences with various equipment, and if those experiences include some improvement or difference with a cable, that’s usually enough to make them a ‘believer’.

It’s far less likely for these same people to then scrutinize those experiences as being potentially fallible, be it down to very real SPL differences that could confound those reports, or confirmation biases of “head-fi told me this would be better”, “it costs THIS much so it must be better”, or… I think more commonly, technological marketing around a given story - that this cable is made from xyz materials and is therefore more conductive and more better. It’s an old, old trope in audio that many manufacturers still ride the coat tails of.

On the flip side, who is to say they aren’t having a better experience for it. Moreover, you can apply the same scrutiny to those who just repeat a given narrative about “it’ll never make any tangible, measurable or perceptual difference”, which is also demonstrably false. In fact, even a recent IEM that I reviewed had a tangible, measurable and audible difference with a cable swap - for the reasons identified in that video. And when various false narratives get perpetuated unchecked, we lose the truth of the matter in the process.

In my view, yes. But this cuts both ways. The truth of the matter is more nuanced than various narratives would lead a person to believe. This is true for cable ‘believers’ as it is for cable ‘deniers’. In both cases - as we’ve seen in this very discussion - it’s simply a matter of understanding it better.

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Whenever discussions move to the topic of cables, I always think of a t-shirt Lachlan Fennen (Passion for Sound on Youtube) had on, relevant to any cable discussion and particularly USB cables.
It said:

USB Cable
USB Cable1266×1216 113 KB

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I’ve been tempted to buy one of those shirts. They’re available in the Passion For Sound store.

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People should start re-thinking about how to treat placebos. Even the medical field is re-examining it and applying it in practice nowadays (links below)

If something works for that individual, that’s all that matters.
Who cares about objectives. Hobbies should all be about self-indulgence.
We get what we want if our wallets can afford it.

The only problem I find is in the communication.
I never forget to add “I personally felt the difference for the better, but you might or might not have the same experience with it.”
And this is because of various factors, something more intuitive like differences in gear, or something less intuitive like choice of music we audition with and preferences in music.
(This is why I’ve been stressing on the lack of brick n’mortar stores for the longest time. Everyone’s different so we’re all going to experience things differently, and yet there are rarely any opportunities to do so in the Americas.)

Also, it’s always nice to have a wide variety of choices to choose from when it comes to cables.
8-wire herringbone weave with copper and silver conductors? That in itself looks gorgeous. It gets my vibes up just by wearing that on the street (functional jewelry!)

It’s often healthier to distance ourselves from the complexities of what the “data” says, and simply immerse ourselves in music.
I was that kind of person before, but was wondering why my recent music listening was not enjoyable as before, and found out later that hindsight bias and confirmation bias was the culprit unintentionally narrowing my choices to only a select few.

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Honestly man, if you are going to be condescending, you should probably read the post you are talking about. Here is the post in question for others just reading the convo here:

So just to break down all of the misunderstandings that are required to ask what you just did.

  1. HE1 is an electrostatic headphone with an attached cable and a proprietary amp. Testing a different headphone cable would require desoldering the current one from the headphone and soldering on a new one assuming you were even able to find another of the specific connector used to hook up to the amp.
  2. The HE1 (and most electrostatic headphones) is an inherently balanced design. Single ended drive of the cans would require disconnecting a stator.
  3. Impedance is a fairly meaningless stat for an electrostatic headphones. Electro static headphones act far closer to capacitors than they do to resistors and by nature of design have impedance that fluctuates wildly with frequency. While you will often see stax specifically report impedance at 10kHz, there is a lot of argument of if this specific stat even matters at all due to the fact that estats dont even always have the same shape of impedance curve meaning that its not actually a comparable figure between most cans. For cables in such reactive systems the inductance and capacitance is far far far more important than just the plain resistance (though they are all loosely related).
  4. Assuming you did realize this was talking about interconnects between the amp and the dac, the impedance of an interconnect specifically is unlikely to have measurable impact on the system due to the input impedance of most amps being well north of 10kohm (input impedance of the HDV820 is 20kohm for example). Instead things like cable geometry (especially on balanced cables) and shielded vs unshielded are much more likely to have measurable impacts in common mode noise rejection and EMI susceptibility.

Questioning results and experience is fine. Id even so go far as to say its important. Acting as you did while not even taking a cursory introspecting to see if you are even on the same topic as others is a different story.

Now lets actually get to your comment.

What empirical evidence do you wish to show to disprove someone’s experiences? Cable to cable will have measurably different traits, so how to you propose to prove an audibility threshold for all of them?

You have not even once in this entire discussion entertained the idea that cables may sound different. That is why the statement was made. You are asking others to be open minded while you are not.

This is objectively false. Just go read a USB, ethernet, or any other digital cable standard. Impedance is an extremely important factor for them, but its only a very small part of the picture. What even lead you to believe that impedance was all that matters?

Case in point on not practicing what you preach. If you want to have an open an valuable discussion you must be openminded as well. Until that happens, as was said before, there is no real value to anyone in continuing the discussion.

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Ehh I actually think @pritster5 has recognized there’s more to this than the existing narratives would indicate. When it comes to audibility, we’re talking about the razor thin ends of audibility (which I imagine is where even many cable ‘believers’ would place the locus of the discussion), and for that, there’s more work that could be done. We know that by and large, in most cases people can’t tell in blind tests. But that also does not necessarily apply to edge cases, where the measurable differences would be greater, nor the thin end of measured differences to where the audibility thresholds across individuals could vary.

I actually think the acknowledgement of this from different perspectives shows there’s absolutely the possibility of reasonable discussion on this topic, even if we don’t all agree on it. Where it becomes fruitless is when folks start perpetuating sweeping narratives absent the possibility of determining if the statements are true. And sometimes discussions can start out that way and folks can realize that, you know what? Maybe the topic itself runs a bit deeper than the narrative they were led to believe indicates. And… in my view that’s a good thing. It’s the first step to understanding it better.

Edit: I should note, it’s probably up to the rest of the community to help cultivate that understanding. I know that sounds like… wishy washy, but the larger audio community is far too siloed as it is and I think we can help to improve that.

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I think its safe to say that we are reading the comments in question (or more specifically the faith they were made in) quite differently.

I never said there wasnt. I said:

The topic its self is absolutely something worth discussing. I just don’t think certain (extremely common) forms of the discussion around the topic are worthwhile. When a discussion starts with one person preaching at another, IME, the chances of it becoming valuable in basically any way are non-existent. In the very last comment I responded to every single part only discussed other people changing their view. Frankly, this attitude is basically always the attitude that “cable deniers” come with when discussing the topic with “believers” (your comment demonstrates the exact same trait btw). That trait is why it was said that the discussion "rarely leads to anything beneficial for anyone involved.” And frankly, if someone doesn’t wish to actualy talk about something with you and directly states so, I find trying to continue the conversation extremely rude. With something as low stakes as audio that’s not really an interaction I value entertaining.

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They may have started out the way you’re suggesting, and in that sense I agree. But if we only repudiate what is… An extremely common position on this topic, we lose the opportunity to have the constructive discussion that actually gets closer to the truth than either ‘side’ would allow for.

Maybe I’m just being overly optimistic or naive about this haha. But I tend to think folks are generally reasonable and when faced with contrary information to their position, they’ll at least entertain the idea in good faith. I know people who don’t, and it’s pretty clear when you start having those conversations. This one doesn’t strike me as such, but of course… I’ve been wrong before hahaha.

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And I may be wrong on this one as well. I simply read all of the “others need to be open to changing their view” as a classic bad faith argument specificaly because of how the conversation started.

I will say though, on the topic of audibility of cables, I pretty genuinely dont believe anything said on teh internet could convince someone to leave their camp. Any blind test that is passed has people and poke holes in it, while anyone who has heard a difference wont care what others say should or should not be theoretically audible, cause you know, they did hear it (or at least are convinced they did). With the burden of proof on the side that honestly has no real desire to engage in the discussion at all (you only need a single example to disprove a rule after all) I don’t see the conversation ever actualy going anywhere constructive.

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As the one who wrote the original impressions and also the one who wrote that this conversation is rarely beneficial to either side, I’d like to clarify why I took that stance:
It is not because I’m not willing to discuss it at all and it is not because I don’t think I can be convinced one thing or the other. It is simply because when a member who just joined a community (1-2 messages in his history prior to those few) and decides to take a certain side with a certain condescending attitude, and from all threads possible also decided to do that in the world’s most expensive headphones system thread that you rarely get an actual chance to listen to in a known and personal environment, it’s simply not something I find engaging and inviting. I’ve been online and in the audio hobby for too long to waste my time on such communication. I shared my experience because I thought it could be nice to get a non reviewer and non owner take on HE1.

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We need more people who can communicate like Lachlan

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And that’s understandable. We all know what some people can be like when it comes to this topic.

Where I think the conversation should go is towards the question of audibility. We can demonstrate the measurable differences, which already goes against the grain when it comes to the common assumption of “it’s all madness”. In reality, the idea that they can have a measurable difference isn’t really up for debate. We can very clearly show it. The question in my view is rather at what point it matters.

Personally I’ll never recommend caring about that stuff because there are easier ways to get a more meaningful change. At the same time, I do think there’s a bit more to figure out in the minutiae as to the threshold at which something becomes perceptually relevant. And especially when it comes to IEMs, I feel it’s important to know where that threshold is - so that at least you have a clear understanding of the change you’ll get, or what to look for if you’re trying to get a certain effect.

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