Vinyl/Turntable Setups & Discussion

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To actually address your question most “guides” I have seen that try to break it down into how much per component basically have me feeling you are in the ballpark. My vinyl set up breaks down to a similar ratio re expenditure and a few friends of mine with good vinyl rigs have followed a similar balance.

Where to put any extra emphasis is something you will get a myriad of answers to. Decks, tonearms and carts have so many variables to them you have to allow for some wiggle room especially if you are mixing and matching. Some carts may not pair well with some tonearms and your phono amp capabilities may limit your cart options as well.

Its just like with anything in audio - you have basic gear that could sound good but the truly good stuff will cost you. My $500 phono was OK, my more expensive one is completely effortless and makes the $500 sound pathetic.

Within the price options you have listed you have an extremely wide range of options available, which is nice but can lead to madness. Start with a deck/tonearm option then see what carts pair well then see if that cart can be run well by the phono amp you may want, then see if you can find reviews of how it all may sound.

MC carts are generally better than MM but there are some good MM. There are also subsets within these options as well, MC carts with high or low options, moving iron, etc. Lots to explore. An added factor is a lot of things just aren’t in stock, especially with carts.

With some careful planning and research you should be able to create a really nice vinyl rig.

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Thanks @perogie and @pennstac

Yes, there are many options in the price range I am considering.

I have looked at SME, VPI, Dr Feickert, and Rega. Currently I am leaning towards a Rega P10.
The Rega can be had with the Apheta 3 for about $7900.

A Dr Feickert Blackbird is $7000 without a cartridge. A Koetsu Rosewood Standard cartridge is $4000, it is well reviewed.

In terms of phono stages, perhaps the most interesting one is the EAT E Glo Petit Hybrid at $1700 (all tube high gain).

Figuring out what to get is part of the enjoyment.

Oh, and no I would not be getting speakers. For now I will be listening with headphones. Currently Utopia and LCD 5 with LTA MZ3 (DNA Stellaris incoming). It has crossed my mind to get something like a pair of LS50 Meta’s and run those off of the MZ3 (and later the Stellaris). But that’s a whole other exploration and path.

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Perhaps your use case is a bit different with a headphones only setup. I’ve always had my turntable attached to my main system and speakers - although I sometimes use headphones in that system.

I came close to Rega, but VPI had a great price and local(ish) pickup.

I really do like GRADO’s higher end carts also, you should consider.

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A company that caught my eye during my research was Origin Live, well reviewed with a relatively wide product offering. I am happy with what I have now but an Origin might be what I would upgrade to.

There is also Linn too and probably some more I am forgetting.

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I was going to bring up Linn. People I trust say that Origin is nice. I was brought up on AR. Thrones (No Siri, not “Thrones” THORENS, THORENS!) , and the like. For high quality vintage, VinylNirvana is very good. They specialize in older systems with a sprung suspension. Can be excellent value, but not in the class of $5K + modern systems.

@Torq can talk Linn.

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I used to run a fully loaded LP12, but sold it when I moved to the US, 25+ years ago now. I’ll always have a soft spot for the LP12, but it wouldn’t be they way I’d go today - and definitely not with a $10K budget.

So I can talk about Linn, but it’s their current digital stuff and speakers that I’d have relevant input on (particularly given that I chose a pair of their latest Klimax DSM (Organik) streamers for my two systems, over MSB, dCS, Chord, EMM and so on).

My den/office/cave table is a Michel Gyrodec, with an SME MKV arm and AT-ART9 cartridge:

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Budget wise you’re about $5K on the deck (once you add the upgraded motor controller and arm board), $5K on the SME V arm, and $1,400 or so on the AT-ART9 cartridge.

Then you’ve got to account for alignment tools (if not willing to do this, don’t go with an aggressively profiled, line-contact style, stylus) and record cleaner …

I used to run the latest Rega Planar 3 with the Neo PSU/controller, reference belt, and upgraded Groovetracer subplater and bearing in my day-job office. Opposite end of the spectrum, but very nice for what it cost.

I think the sweet spot, in Rega’s line-up, is the RP6 with the factory MC cart option. The 8 and 10 are undoubtedly better, but not where I’d put the money they actually cost.

I have a soft-spot for the VPI Classic V4 (from the pre-3D printed arm days). While I like the look of their higher end stuff today, I’m still unconvinced by their newer arms, and would personally be looking elsewhere.

Love the SME stuff. The Model 60 is on the short-list for my new listening room. The Model 12 is still a very fine sounding table.

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Wow, that is a nice looking deck. Need a proper stand for that given that the turntable is 48kg!

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At the risk of being a killjoy, I would say that looking at it in terms of dollar investment is foolhardy. If you’re going to invest in a serious analogue front end, it behooves you to dig deep into the details. Just because a turntable costs $4k doesn’t mean it’s a good match with a $4k cartridge. What is the tonearm made of? How damped is the platter? What material is the stylus made of? What shape is the diamond tip? How are you connecting it to the phono preamp? All of these things matter. You can pair a $4k cartridge with a $1k turntable, but if the tonearm or platter is made from the wrong material or if your preamp can’t support that level of cartridge the end result isn’t going to sound good.

My advice: spend as much as you are reasonably comfortable with on a turntable and take whatever cartridge comes with it. Once you have that base you have a couple of years to figure out synergy with the cartridge of your choice. The cartridge matters more than anything else, but if you START with that you’ll end up at a standstill. Build the base, and then build on top of that.

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I think the dollar amounts come into play in two ways. The first is obvious – how much are you willing to spend. The second way of looking at it is: within the world of turntables, what do you need to spend in order to get really good sound and how bad does the law of diminishing returns set in.

For headphones I can advice people if they say they want to spend $200, $600, or $4000. For DACs too. But I don’t know enough about vinyl playback to do the same in that area.

When I research turntables I enjoy reading about things like Rega’s philosophy of:

Rega defines a turntable as a “vibration measuring machine.” Therefore, they contend—and this is putting it as simply as possible—the lower the mass, the less energy the system can store, only to be later released to confuse and muddy up the sound. Over-damp a turntable and it can sound dull, dead, and lifeless. I’ve reviewed a few of those. Ref

All the things you say matter, are things I geek out on. I’ve watched the factory tours, the interviews with the engineers. That’s part of the journey.

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I take it you mean the P6 that replaced the RP6 a couple of years back (RP6 vs P6).

There are some great comparison videos of the P6, P8, and P10. To me, the upgrades seem worthwhile. The P8 was originally what I was attracted to, but the P10 now has my gaze. The P6 is first in the line with a lightweight plinth. The P8 might be the best bang for the buck in their line, but I’d still pay a bit more to get the improved power supply, machined ceramic platter, ceramic bracing, and higher end tone arm with the P10. It may not always be a great idea to buy the top of the line of a brand. But of course that isn’t the P10 – Rega sells the Naiad (for $40k).

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Yep; old habit … my abbreviation is for “Rega Planar N” rather than just the model number, since the entire line-up is now “Planar N”.

Like I said, the 8 and 10 are better, I just didn’t feel they were sufficiently better, given the delta in price (effectively doubling at each step) vs. the 6, that I would personally bother. That was based on spending the better part of the day with a 6, 8 and 10 all setup next to each other, listening to them.

I didn’t buy the P6, either, ultimately. And this was for a secondary table, not my main.

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Looking for a centralized forum thread on established vinyl systems with headphones.
Is this the place, or is there another high traffic one online?
I’m currently using Rega P8 + Sutherland transimpedance, and am hoping to grow my vinyl use but most of the forums online aren’t headphones based… in my limited experience the vinyl-headphone experience is quite different from vinyl-2Ch.

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I suspect this is largely because Headphones are largely used for convenience and Vinyl is the antithesis of that, I know I don’t do Vinyl because to me the whole thing is a ritual and it just doesn’t work with how I use headphones. Now if I ever had a dedicated 2Ch space again, I’d jump in again.

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Ok. But I do. And I’m willing to put $$$ into it if it can be optimized.

The reason I’m posting is because I’m getting the sense that the inherent differences in headphone audio (e.g. very intimate presentation, highly detailed, inherently less ‘airy’ than 2Ch) might compete against the sonic presentation advantages of what makes vinyl wonderful, and highlights the vinyl playback noise that is probably more acceptable in a 2Ch setup.

So if folks have achieved high end vinyl w/ headphones, I’d love to learn and explore. On the other hand if the consensus is that head-fi is definitely more geared towards digital playback, then I’d like to know.

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I’m happy with my setup (Rega P10 → PS Audio Stellar → DNA Stellaris → Utopia).

And records aren’t always noisy. Last night I listened to Kraftwerk’s Remixes and it is essentially silent, no pops no background noise at normal listening levels. Maybe you were referring to some other noise I’m not thinking about, but I would say that vinyl playback is fantastic on a good headphone system.

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Love this. This is very helpful.

I agree they’re not always noisy… I’m using a Keith Monks cleaning system (or Spinclean if really dirty) but I struggle to really keep everything dry and immaculately clean despite new sleeves, careful handling, static gun, etc. Already replaced the Rega mat w/ a Herbie’s.

I’d wonder if maybe the Apheta 3 isn’t squared up in alignment, but supposedly Rega is plug n’ play…

Usually I’m referring to what sounds like dust / track crud, etc. Maybe I need to step up to a Degritter.

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Is this for older / used records or new ones? My old stack of records are still back in Sweden, so almost everything I have here is new and I have especially sought out audiophile releases (for the most part). I just make sure not to leave the records on the turn table when I am not listening.

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I certainly don’t think vinyl lends itself particularly better to 2-channel than headphones. Headphones by and large appeal particularly to people with limited space, and collecting vinyl couldn’t be further from ‘convenient’ for someone with limited space, so I think that may be why you more often see high end turntables paired with expansive listening rooms with speakers. Sonically, headphones are perfect for capturing the detail and warmth of vinyl IMHO.

I’ve been collecting records since the 90’s - I was into vinyl when everyone else said it was a dead medium. Apart from any sonic advantage, there’s just something very satisfying about holding a vinyl record of a favorite album in your hands, and something very respectful & meditative about the ceremony of playing a record.

My setup is E.A.T. C-Sharp w/ Ortofon Quintet Black > PS Audio Stellar Phono Pre > Bliss/Stellaris. I’ll be looking to get a new cartridge next year - maybe a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze or Black or maybe a Hana Umami. I’m still struggling with the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a consumable that will only last a few years, but some brands offer re-tipping at a reduced cost or a discount on replacement if you stay within the brand, so I’m digging into that now.

As for “noisy” records, you can’t COMPLETELY get away from this, but in addition to ultrasonic cleaners (or Perfect Vinyl Forever), higher end phono preamps tend to separate the snap crackle pop from the music so it’s still there but it stands apart, almost on a different plain where it’s easier to ignore.

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:joy: All of high-end audio is inconvenient. Searching for the last rare vacuum tubes from some rural cave in Europe, making sure all cables have minimal contact with anything around them, and endless tweaks for 2% sonic gains are pursued with joy… so why not vinyl.

Agree that headphones are often due to circumstances. In my case, if not for young children who go to bed at 7pm, I’d have a 2-channel system. But after being passed my dad’s record collection, it’s tempting to make vinyl sound as great as digital… regardless of effort.

To be frank, I have yet to experience this amazing joy of vinyl that everyone talks about even after having sunk >10k into vinyl playback. Either I’m doing it all wrong, my ears are f-kd, or I just don’t get it. The really good recordings of Dave Brubeck, or Keith Jarrett, etc., sound pretty good… but is it really better than digital… ?

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Yeah, but trust me - owning 1,000+ records is a much bigger inconvenience than literally ANYTHING else, in hifi or otherwise. LOL This passion is a sickness. :wink:

I don’t know what to tell you, except that I get a very specific satisfaction knowing that I own one of a limited number of physical materializations of my favorite albums, and holding that physical, eternally playable, medium in my hands. It’s one thing to press play on a CD, much less to select an album to stream, and a VERY different thing to go to my record shelves and search for an album, find that album and pull it, go to my turntable, take it out of the sleeve, place it on the turntable, pull out my record brush and carefully clean off any dust, lower the tonearm, and finally sit down and sit back to enjoy the album. It’s a ceremony that reinforces the fact that music is not just sound to be played in the background, but rather art to be appreciated and respected, and the very act of playing a record forces you to focus on what you’re listening to in a very zen way.

But, as with all things, YMMV.

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Sonically? Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. The bass on a record is mono (bc physics), that alone means the playback sounds materially different than a digital stream. “Different”, definitely. “Better”, maybe.

If you visualize a digital PCM stream, even the highest resolution is really 192,000 points connected by straight lines. At best, “the best possible recreation” of the waveform. The waveform on a record is analog - no straight lines, just the organic movements of air. Those of us devoted to records, much like those devoted to tape, believe our brains can hear the difference as a more realistic, more “organic”, sound.

p.s. unlike most vinyl enthusiasts, I will freely admit that a proper DSD recording from the analog tape master is at least equal to if not better than vinyl. PCM, not so much.

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