Assumed Good Hearing. No one checks if reviewers' hearing is OK!

As a musician also, it’s always a two step process. You cannot try out ALL the guitars or pianos, in the store. That would take far too long.

The specs, and reviews, and nowadays the audio and video examples online, are educational, informative, and entertaining, going a long way to narrow down to a smaller shortlist, the things I want to audition, when I get into the store.

The difference I think is really COST. If I’m spending e.g. $2,000+ on an instrument or a studio speaker/monitor, or a live speaker, no way would I buy it online without a personal demo, in a store or warehouse demo facility.

I am unlikely to ever spend $2,000+ on a hi-fi home speaker, or headphone or IEM. For IEM’s in particular(which with ChiFi, has become a lot easier to binge on and impulse buy cos of their low cost) and possibly headphones, that’s where the reviews and measurements can help. When I’m buying less expensive kit.

I find the squig.link really really helpful in comparing an IEM I already own, with others that I already own, and hear what the differences sound like, and then it’s easy to anticipate what other IEMs which I do not own, may sound like, when I compare them “virtually”. For lower value items, below say $100, especially as there are so many of these products nowadays, the lower the cost , the more models are available, it’s almost impossible to find a store which stocks every single ChiFi lower cost IEM, that one may be interested in. Simply impossible.

And this is where reviewers and measurements, in my experience, really can help provide perspective, of what to expect, compared to what one already owns. I think also the pedigree of the reviewer and the measurements is important. I’d be happy to spend $500 possibly up to $1,000, on a pair of Hi-Fi speakers, purely based on a review with measurements by Erin’s Audio Corner (Youtuber and blogger) or AmirM (Audio Science Review founder), cos for speakers, there is a long tradition of measurements from many sides of the audio journalistic space. As long as I had the Frequency response, dispersion(vertically or horizontally), in room prediction, waterfall and impulse response, I’d be comfortable buying without listening.

In one aspect of the pro audio space, the manufacturers provide measurements, extensive one’s also, for professional use, so we can predict the performance of a speaker configuration, in a hall, or venue, using simulation software, and do a good chunk of the planning, ahead of placing the speakers physically in the room. Typically this is done for the larger events e.g Taylor Swift or Beyonce concerts, and without measurements, it would be impossible to achieve this, cos there is no time, for trial and error, at every new venue, so measurements have their place, and are used extensively to define setups costing millions of dollars for a PA system, either an installed one or a “mobile” one.

If big money spenders can rely on measurements, to plan and choose what to deploy, some of that intelligence should trickle down to the more budget end of things, to assist us with decision making., without having to listen to every item, we are interested in procuring.

So measurements do have a certain value, at the very least to exclude things that are predictably far from ideal, and not worth auditioning. A device that measures well, may still sound not so good, but a device which clearly measures far from the desired target, is unlikely to sound good.

1 Like

Caveat.

I would be wary of comparing measurements of devices using different kinds of drivers, cos at this point in time, these measurements, to the best of my knowledge do not tell me enough of what to expect.

I’m still looking for the kind of measurements that can distinguish the supposed accuracy of different drivers. At this point in time, all we have are subjective descriptions such as - electrostatics are “faster” than planars, and these are faster than dynamics, but I’m waiting to see the measurements which support these subjective statements.

So here is one clear area, where we have nothing, I know of, at this time, to explain the difference in their sound.

It’s not just an issue in Hi-Fi or audiophile world, it applies to professional audio, there is NOTHING, in today’s measurements that can show me without listening, what to expect, when a product uses a different kind of driver. The FR can be identical, but everyone agrees, they do not sound the same, if the driver is different. E.g silk (soft dome) vs metal tweeters, something as simple as such a change in drivers that are both dynamic drivers, yet sounding different and no measurements can tell us which is which, that I know of today.

1 Like

OK, but pure-tone audiometry isn’t a set of machine measurements. The test result is an audiologist’s record of the subject’s responses indicating at what sound-pressure level the subject can perceive a tone – or, if you prefer, the “just-noticeable difference” between the tone and silence (or background tinnitus, in my case :laughing:).

I’m sure that branch of psychology is interesting. The name “just-noticeable differences” reminds me though of the joke about actors: “Why does he look so good on camera?” “Because, he’s photogenic!” Ah, that explains it! :laughing:

That’s a calibration test then, and a part of perceptual testing. My response wasn’t specifically meant to say audiometry is not perceptual; just too general and sloppy on my part. I’m not opposed to machine measurements, but their meaning follows the human factors.

JND is a very old concept in research (aka cognitive) psych. Yes, it’s weird phrasing.

1 Like

I push for looking at perception as the central consideration because perceptions are what we truly access from the external world.

Absolutely agree with @generic.
Prime example is when Olive, S. equated audio equipment to a transparent wine glass

As idyllic as that may sound, there are surmounting evidence indicating the very vessel you drink from can modulate perceptions.

No matter what the machines measure, individual differences exist on the basis of how we perceive the sound.
So what’s the best form of transparency then?
Just like how softwares become open source for full transparency and further development to excel for the betterment of the overall user-base, businesses should open the heck up and allow the end-users to interact with products.

Please. I beg everyone to at least accept this.
I am highly against the current trend of “understanding science and ability to read graphs/read between the lines of various reviewers” being a prerequisite for starting this hobby…
Plug n’play doesn’t need to get this complicated.

2 Likes

Nina Kraus’s field of study may interest you :+1:

If people are so adamant on objective measurements being a necessity, I’d implore YouTubers to get up to the level of what Audio Test Kitchen has achieved with microphones.

This third video is by a Japanese-speaking audio engineer working in LA who took part in this project.
The interview part is in English.

2 Likes

We no longer have an office in Vancouver.

There will be opportunities for in-person hearing when we are set up at our new location.

1 Like

On the Moon? Please say on the Moon.

1 Like

Wow
about time this happened.
Thank you

Now let’s hope everyone who do come in to audition products are cleared of their minds primed by prior reviews and measurements that bias their experiences into whatever they’ve read beforehand.

Any future plans to partner with stores like Micro Center to get a wider outreach? Obviously the PC gaming community is very much interested in good quality audio but there’s barely anything for them at the moment.
If you’re able to get the PC community in on audio, I’m certain that’ll propel not only Headphones .com to the next level, but will also help flourish, or at least become recognized and accepted, to a wider range of people.

I’ll genuinely laugh if he refers to Moon Audio

1 Like

oh look.
there’s conveniently a hearing aid specialty store in the same building of e-earphone, where they mainly usher those for custom molds, and they’re holding a free hearing check event for their customers next month.

they’ve literally got everything thought out lolol

I haven’t thoroughly followed this thread, but for what it’s worth, many of us do in fact test our hearing regularly. I can’t speak for everyone, but I do know that myself, Cameron, and DMS at least check this kind of stuff. And I will also note that it’s not just about how high up you can hear. Hearing loss can occur at varying frequencies.

Even so… we probably shouldn’t be indexing for the hearing of any given individual, reviewer or otherwise. This is another area where measuring headphones is genuinely helpful. I don’t think anyone should expect what they hear to perfectly match what is measured, and most of us doing the measurements and reviewing products don’t think of it that way either, but it may still be closer to how the audience would hear the headphone than how the individual person reporting their experiences hears it.

I tend to think of it like getting multiple viewpoints in a single evaluation. One from the reviewer, and one from how the measurement rig ‘heard it’. And that’s better than just one or the other.

3 Likes

getting multiple viewpoints in a single evaluation. One from the reviewer, and one from how the measurement rig ‘heard it’. And that’s better than just one or the other.

you forgot the most important one.
The viewpoint of the customer…
Measurements, just like how goes with data analysis in the field of science, should only serve as an approximate ‘explanation’ of the real world. Never should it be the other way around. That’s only a ‘prediction.’
And by that definition, individual experiences always trumps said predictions which is why I constantly push for everyone to go out and try products out for themselves rather than wasting time trying to understand how to read graphs, the ‘science’ behind measurements, etc etc. Kinda the same reason as to why JayzTwoCents wants his viewers to go to Micro Center especially for buying monitors.
And businesses should push for increasing opportunities for their potential customers to achieve that rather than opt for the lazy route of an online store and call it done which, quite surprisingly, the Lissimores are working on at the moment.
Kudos to them. Hope it’ll turn out well.

Don’t think @Resolve ever forgets about that. Of all the reviewers he’s the one that keeps reminding people what they hear will vary.

Amen to that, not everyone has the luxury of doing so, but there’s nothing better than trying on something for yourself.

Funnily enough, the more I test headphones in person long and short term, watch reviews and read graphs, the more I feel like reviews are not very useful. I find my impressions of heapdhones correlate closer (60-80%) to what I could decipher from measurements than a lot of reviewer’s flowery poetic descriptions (0-60%). So many of them try to be too kind to headphones that looks bad on graph and also sound bad to my ears. Many of them also spend 10+ minutes talking about the FR that I could see on the screen, and that would be the entirety of their sound impression. What I’d prefer to see in a review are precisely what cannot be measured: comfort, sound stage, imaging, immersiveness, comfort, seal etc.

It’s not lazy, it’s economics. There’s a reason why they have good stores for testing in Tokyo, Singapore… you need density in order to serve a vanishingly small percentage of people who gives a crap about $300+ headphones.

4 Likes

Click for customer… .

1 Like

I’ve seen you say this a couple of times now and I’ll just come out and say it that online stores ≠ lazy.

Online stores face a series of challenges that legacy brick and mortar stores do not have to deal with, tend to be more of a 24/7 work week vs 9-5 and in the cases of online stores with expensive domains, pay not only for the domain but separate warehousing / logistics not tied into the space they are already paying for.

The lazy thing to do is to rent out a space, put some gear in it and assume people should come to your store because you have a physical location.

The un-lazy thing to do is to spend years building a team to build a platform that helps educate and inform consumers so they can make the most informed decisions possible when they aren’t in a position or location where it is possible to try out gear.

3 Likes

Online stores merely update the old mail-order catalog business. Not everyone lives within practical shopping distance of bricks-and-mortar. Catalogs faded away as online tech rose. Take a look at 100 year old Sears Roebuck catalogs @Delsonta – you could order anything from clothes to farm equipment to a house by mail back in the day:

1 Like

The first house I bought was a Craftsman Bungalow that someone had ordered from the Sears catalog.

Nice and upgradeable. About 1200 sq feet. 2 bedroom one bath. Built in the 1920s

2 Likes

I think you can tell alot about how a headphone will perform from its FR, distortion, impedance, phase, channel matching, and impulse response. Assuming unit variation is low.

The more you listen, and also look at plots of these things for what you’re listening to, the more I think you’re able to correlate what you’re seeing in the measurements to what you’re hearing with your own ears. This has been true for me anyway. (Though I think not so for everyone.) And I can give you some fairly concrete examples of this from some of my past listening tests on various closed backs.

One of my first headphones was the KRK KNS6400. And one of the reasons for that was its FR, which was fairly neutral, and also fairly well extended in both the treble and the sub-bass (which was a bit unusual at the time). It’s FR looked a bit like a slightly brighter HD650 or 600 with some sub-bass. Sounds great, right?

The measurements provide some good clues why I decided it was not for me though.

For starters, it was very hard to get a reliable seal. I don’t remember all the exact details on why, but the cable only connected to one side and was a bit thick and heavy. And there may have been no weight in the other ear cup to help to counter balance it better. There was also somethin about the pads though that just wouldn’t allow them to stay sealed well. This is reflected in the inconsistent responses (“stringers”) in Tyll’s raw FR graphs in the bass.

It also had odd resonant characteristics. I recall thinking at the time that it sounded a bit like the sound was bouncing off a wall with wood paneling. And there was no way to eliminate that quality, even though the headphone was tonally well-balanced (when it sealed properly). The odd resonances or reflections in the cups are reflected in the rather wiggly nature of the raw response curves. And also in some of the choppiness in the impulse response (which is otherwise ok).

The distortion was also not that exceptional, so it didn’t have a great sense of clarity, or much spaciousness (other than the rather wooden-sounding reflections).

The channel matching on the KNS6400 was decent. But only if both earcups sealed the same way, which was often not the case. And that also effected the imaging.

All of this can be seen in the measurements, if you know what to look for. The one thing you cannot see in the measurements is that the cable also made a fairly loud creaking sound whenever I moved or turned my head.

This was sort of where my education in measurements (and also my belief in their value) began though. Because I was able to connect alot of the dots between what I was hearing and what was also shown on the graphs.

1 Like