Balanced vs SE-Copper vs Silver

Ever since I obtained the Topping D900/A900 setup, been curious to try out the 4.4 mm balanced connection. Most of my headphones came with a short 4.4 mm cable, and a longer 6.3 mm cable. Since my listening position is somewhat away from the gear rack, always just used the 6.3 mm longer cable.

Rob Watts (Chord) always preached that SE connections were preferred to balanced. I never quite bought into that, as the balanced connection with AK 240 Blue Note player I have always sounded a bit better than the SE input.

I found a 4.4 mm extension cable made of silver at a good price. Each of the headphones I’ve tried with the 4.4 mm setup sounded better than the SE connection. Not sure if it’s just the balanced connection, the silver cable, or a bit of both. I was always skeptical about headphone cables, but now I’m wondering if the silver cable does indeed help?

I’m not a big believer in cable wire materials affecting sound. But as far as the connection, my general rule of thumb is use balanced if the amplifier is natively balanced. Amps are designed to be one or the other and will sound best when the connection matches the architecture.

Just to scratch some paranoia itch, I also tend to use the 4-pin XLR connection because it has the largest contact area.

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I also have been skeptical about audio wire. I have to say though that the silver cable seems to be slightly brighter (subjectively).

I also like the 4 pin XLR connection. However, only one of my headphones has the 4 pin XLR, whilst the rest of them have the 4.4 mm cables, hence the decision to get the 4.4 mm cable extension. There are not a lot of those out there, so when I saw the silver one on sale, figured I should get it.

The Topping A900 is fully balanced, which is likely why the balanced connections sound a bit better.

In most cases, when I check the specifications, where these details are available :slight_smile:

  1. The output impedance of balanced headphone outputs is typically higher (about twice) that of the single ended output, in a headphone amp or DAC dongle, which has both balanced and single ended outputs. This increase in the output impedance of a balance headphone output, may not be of any significance if the headphone input impedance is well over 8 or 10 times the output impedance of the headphone output.

For example if the SE has 0.05 Ohms output impedance and the Balanced option has 0.10 Ohms output impedance, such a small increase in output impedance is negligible, in my opinion, if the headphone input impedance is at least 16 Ohms.

  1. On the other hand the crosstalk of SE headphone outputs, is typically in the region of -(minus) 70dB to -(minus) 80 dB, while a well specified balanced headphone output is in the region of -(minus) 110dB to -(minus) 120 dB, i.e the crosstalk on the balanced connection is also lower, i.e each channel contributes less “interference” to the other channel, left to right or right to left, for a “cleaner” more accurate audio signal. Whether this improvement in the clarity of a balanced audio signal is audible, I really do not know.

  2. Please note that the balanced output is typically about twice as loud as the SE, so when comparing the sound, there is a need to compensate for this volume increase, to ensure one is listening at the same loudness level. Deceptively louder sounds better, but may just be simply because it is louder - due to Fletcher-Munsen phenomena of our human hearing, louder emphasizes the bass and high frequencies, which we hear as “better”., except of course at very loud listening levels, when this excessive bass and high frequency perception, does have diminishing returns and then starts to sound worse, in my opinion.

  3. Also note that silver has a lower resistance (just slightly lower) than copper, so a silver cable of the same length will also sound louder, for this reason alone. When you then factor in the increase in loudness due to the use of a balanced connection, compared with an SE connection, the difference you are hearing may be attributed to loudness.

  4. But we must also now veer into forbidden territory. In my experience, even after an effort has been made to adjust volume and listen at about the same loudness, I find a balanced connection tends to sound better, but this could be for several reasons, such as better bass handling due to the increase in power. This is my conjecture, I am not a physics or electrical expert. Just an informed hobbyist and audio engineer.

  5. Silver vs Copper. I have never used a silver only cable, so cannot say if silver vs copper would change the audio, but this much I know, there is the potential, in the IEM segment, where I have noticed a difference in audio when changing cables. I use about 10 different IEM cables, and they do not sound the same. Some attenuate the high frequencies, some attenuate the low frequencies, some sound much clearer than others, and I am still trying to understand why, cos these observations hold true even when I make every effort to compensate for loudness differences, cos each cable has a different resistance, based on its construction, length and thickness of conductor. But there are other characteristics of cable which may affect the sound, which have nothing to do with the type of conductor or cross sectional diameter of the conductor material, via things like the way the strands are insulated or twisted, or distance between strands, etc, etc, which affect other electrical properties such as the inductance and the capacitance. These other properties, from my hobby level knowledge, can have an impact on the high or low frequencies. I hear these differences between cables, that are definitely NOT just due to loudness, cos I can compensate for the variation in loudness, yet for IEMs, I still hear differences between cables. But these differences are not just about the conductor material.

    I have two kinds of cables, all copper, and silver coated copper. I hear differences between different copper cables, even after I have compensated as best as I can for level differences, to avoid the deception that louder is better. And I also hear differences between silver coated copper cables, which to me confirm that there is more to this issue than just the conductor material. Such as the way the cable is insulated, what insulator material was used, spacing of the wires, diameter of the insulating material, how many strands, etc, etc. And of course the solder at both ends of the cable, and the quality of soldering, and materials used for the connector, may have their own impact, however small.

In the IEM space, I consider that these differences may be more audible, cos the input impedances of IEMs is usually pretty low, between about 16 and 30 ohms in most cases.I suspect that with over the ear headphones, after the issue of level has been addressed, so that one is not deceived by a louder signal, any sonic differences between cables, may be less audible. Furthermore, I would want to think that cables made for over the ear headphones, especially from a well known brand, are likely to have been better designed and manufactured.

In the IEM cable segment, especially in the budget range, quality control, and design excellence, could be a contributor to the rather significant variances I hear between such cables.

It depends on what you mean by twice as loud.

For a sound to be percieved as twice as loud it requires 10 times the amp power (watts / milliwatts / mw). Balanced amps do not have 10 times the power on the balanced output compared to the single ended output.

If you mean twice the watts then that is in line with balanced amps, but twice the watts is only perceived as a 3db increase in volume (twice the volume would be 10db increase).

When I say twice as loud, that is an approximation, purely based on my own personal perception.

I am not using any measurement tools. And I do not assume the person who asked for help may be using measurement tools.

For more exactness, the exact difference in power between the balanced output and the single ended, in watts, varies. It is not an exact ratio, and this ratio of how much the balanced output provides, in comparison with the single ended - on a specific headphone, it also depends on the input impedance of the load - i..e.

I recall some headphone amplifiers, that I recall reading their specs, most likely one of the Chord dongle DACs - but it could have been some other brand, where the watts on the balanced vs the single ended were exactly the same.

Here is an example from the Topping DX1 version 2 (single ended is in the middle column, balanced outputs are on the rightmost column. As you can see, the ratio of max output in watts, at a specific load, varies quite a bit, from 115/29 @ 600 Ohms, to 730/800 @ 16 Ohms.

In my dongle DAC which has both balanced and single ended headphone outputs, I tend to use a compensatory gain of 7.5 dB gain, which I set by ear, in my playback software,when I move an IEM on the same cable (a modular cable, with interchangeable connectors for 3.5mm SE and 4.4mm balanced) from balanced to SE.

Sorry to have to redirect you, your quote of 10dB as the doubling gain, is not exactly accurate cos it assumes you are listening to a specific frequency of 1Khz tone.

From google search

The Perceptual Rules of dB in Audio

Because human hearing responds to sound logarithmically rather than linearly, the relationship between physical sound measurement and psychoacoustic perception relies on a few core benchmarks:

  • 1dB: The smallest detectable change in volume that a highly trained listener can perceive under ideal conditions.

  • 3dB: A clearly noticeable and commonly accepted threshold for an audible difference in volume. It requires a literal doubling or halving of acoustic energy.

  • 6dB: A physical doubling or halving of the sound wave’s amplitude, but only perceived as a fraction of “twice as loud”.

  • 10dB: The psychoacoustic threshold of twice (or half) the perceived loudness. To achieve this, audio systems must increase physical power by \(10\) times

    More info at the Youtube video below

https://youtu.be/080I7w1pr34?si=YuqxKlj-rSYcBWkS

Why Perception Varies

Perception is not a flat, one-size-fits-all scale. The “doubling” rule applies most consistently to mid-range tones around \(1\text{ kHz}\) and at standard listening volumes. At softer listening levels, a smaller jump (e.g., \(2\) to \(3\text{ dB}\)) can trick the brain into perceiving a doubling of volume.

Additionally, human ears are less sensitive to extremely high and low frequencies at quieter volumes, as outlined by the Fletcher-Munson curves (equal-loudness contours). As a result, the perceived dB range for “twice as loud” shifts dynamically depending on the frequency of the sound and the environment you are listening in.

**A doubling of the sensed volume (loudness) is equivalent to a level change approximately between 6 dB and 10 dB.

Why, cos loudness is phychoacoustic. Further reading at the link below.**

So in conclusion, when I said a balanced output, in my case, sounds twice as loud, that was correct, cos I use, based on listening, a gain of 7.5dB to correct the drop in perceived loudness, which is between 6dB and 10dB, that is correct in my own case, and for the input impedance(i.e the headphone amplifier load) of the IEM I use most of the time, and to me sounds this difference in gain, sounds about twice the loudness.

But as you can see from the Topping DX1 version 2, that gain, or any attempt to match loudness, would not possibly incorrect for the Topping DX1 version 2, cos at every load ( headphone or IEM input impedance), one would have to listen to determine what sounds like the appropriate compensating gain, between the SE and balanced outputs.

While I used my own example which needs about 7.5dB to double the loudness, the more important point is that loudness typically varies between the SE and balanced and that when comparing these two outputs on the same device, there is a need to compensate for the variation in loudness, in the signal chain, to match the actual listening levels, and as I said in the previous post, to avoid the deception of the louder signal sounding better.

In some headphone outputs, there is no difference in wattage between the SE and the balanced>

I bothered to check, and indeed I am correct, in the case of the Chord Mojo 2, this is so.

From google.

The updated version of the Chord Mojo 2 features both a 3.5mm single-ended and a 4.4mm balanced headphone output. Despite the physical difference, both outputs share the exact same maximum power output and internal analogue signal path. [1, 2]

Because Chord Electronics derives the 4.4mm connection’s signal from a single-ended internal architecture, you do not get the traditional balanced power boost (e.g., doubling the voltage). [1]

When communicating the point that when comparing the balanced and singled ended outputs it may be necessary to lower the volume of the balanced ouput, we will have to agree to disagree about whether saying “about twice as loud” serves the reader better or worse than saying “louder”.

You are welcome to your opinions. I have no interest in raising pointless arguments.

You made an effort to discredit what I said, and I have provided ample context to explain and clarify exactly why what I said, was valid.

You either accept it or not. And please stop trying to prove that others are wrong, it’s pointless, and if I may be direct, it is a negative attitude. Does not help the discussion,. or anyone, to learn, or improve.

Please stop. I have given more than enough context to explain my earlier comments, and the best you could do is admit, you prematurely judged my initial response, and now I have provided ample context, supported by many authorities, that can’t be refuted., how about admitting, you jumped the gun.

Rather than jump into this conversation, to prove I was wrong, it would have been better to ask me why I said what I said.

You made an assertion that double the loudness was +10dB, and now I have provided ample support that your assertion, has a flaw, and you keep on this effort to prove that I was wrong. In all honesty, some humility would help, on your part. You’ve already made a statement that was clearly incorrect about +10dB being double the loudness, and I did not make a song and dance about it, only “educated” you on the matter in the most polite manner I could.

You asserted I was wrong and I have provided clear support that was not the case, and rather your response about +10dB being double the loudness, is what needs clarification or to be more direct - “correction”, and I have assisted you with more than enough information to reconsider your assertion.

But this is the internet. All manner of agendas. Seriously what is your objective? To contribute, or just try to pick holes in what others say?

You said I was wrong, without providing any evidence, and your most recent response also has no evidence. Sorry I fail to appreciate your objective.