General purchase advice: Ask your questions/for advice here!

A few months ago, this forum helped me decide on purchasing the Sundara (and very happy with them). Hoping you can help me with my next purchase. I am trying to decide if I should purchase an amp (like Schiit Magni or an iFi Zen Can) or a new DAC / AMP combo (iFi Zen DAC).

I listen to Rock and Classical on Tidal (MQA where possible) and am using a Dragonfly Black on PC and phone. In addition to my Sundara, I also use FiiO FH7 IEM and Grado SR80e. My daughter has the same setup, but she has the Sennheiser 6XX and Grado SR80e and is also looking for what is next.

Option 1 is to continue to use my Dragonfly Black but connect it to a dedicated amp. Not sure if that will improve my sound though. The Dragonfly is already plenty loud since I am listening currently at volume 2 on my PC with Tidal (exclusive mode to take advantage of MQA where available). I am not sure I understand the difference between volume and power of an amp (voltage / watts). Reviews say the 6XX needs a powerful amp to sound good, but the Dragonfly drives the 6XX loud enough without even having to get to 50% volume.

Option 2 is to upgrade to a better DAC / AMP combo like the iFi Zen DAC. I also considered the iFi Hip DAC, but not really interested in a battery powered device that will degrade in a few years. Not sure if this will be a step up from current setup although I realize will have a slightly different sound based upon the different Burr Brown chip. I lean to the combo because of the ability to move around the house with it (PC or phone).

I am interested in people’s thoughts. Maybe it is better to wait, save my money and upgrade to the next level up (and more expensive) DAC and amp.

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Glad to hear things worked out with your Sundara.

I prefer separates over combos. Separates generally have a higher potential/ceiling for sound quality and allow for incremental separate unit upgrades, which can save money in the long term. Combos can save money in the short term including on cables, avoid DAC and amp pairing, and have a neater footprint.

I think of things in terms of identifying the weakest link in your chain. Here, your Dragonfly Black appears to be a capable DAC, but wanting as an amp. An improved amp will likely sound more open and dynamic with wider soundstage and imaging, less congested and compressed - these are beyond volume aspects.

It depends on your budget, preference for separate vs combo, preference for solid state vs tube, valuing sound quality vs portability, whether you need battery powered capability. I’d advise against getting hung up on balanced vs singled ended at this stage.

For separates, in ascending cost take a look at the Magni 3+, Vali 2 with upgraded Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 tube, and Asgard 3.

Once upgrading to those amps, the weak link in your chain will be your DAC. In ascending cost, there’s the Modi 3, Modius, and Modi Multibit.

For combos, there’s the Asgard 3 with DAC module, and the JDS Labs Element 2. I prefer these over the iFi amps in this price range where sound quality is valued over portability. Where portability is a priority, the iFi products are a good option and I have a Nano BL myself.

Good luck. See link below. The headphones.com site has other articles that I’ve found helpful.

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I agree entirely and heartily with @bpcarb’s excellent advice. I’ll add two thoughts.

  1. If both you and your daughter are seeking upgrades simultaneously, you might like to try to two different amps for the sake of variety and experimentation: I should think the Magni 3+ would work well with your headphones and IEM (use the low gain for your IEMs!!!); your daughter’s HD 6XX would pair very nicely with the Vali 2. But then I’m not sure if the Vali 2 would work as well for your Sundara or FH7 (but it might?). You could get one of each and see how you get along with different combinations. Both are affordable and Schiit offers a decent return policy - you could send which ever one back you like the least for a refund, minus 15% restocking fee so long as it’s within 15 days of receiving your amp.

  2. Alternatively, you could save some extra cash by purchasing b-stock from Schiit. Right now you could get an older version of the Magni, the 3 (not the plus) for $69, or the Magni 3+ itself for $89. (I have the 3 and love it). The b-stock will have cosmetic flaws and won’t qualify for the 15-day return policy.

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Amps have more of an impact than DACs, and you may not understand the benefits until you try something more powerful than the Dragonfly series. Even very weak amps will play “loud,” but they tend to not generate clean or deep bass, a stable image, or control distortion very well. I’d start with a new amp.

We had a similar discussion in this forum a while ago between @pennstac and @Torq. @pennstac was using a Dragonfly but eventually switched to the Schiit Lyr 3 (a large, powerful headphone amp). Having more than enough power in the amp makes some headphones come alive. The Sennheiser 600 family is famous for benefiting from better and better and better amps. Planar headphones also suck down gobs of power.

I bought a Schiit Magni 3+ expressly for use with planar headphones (Dan Clark AEON Flow Closed or AFC), but never liked the original Magni 3 myself. The Magni 3+ does add a fullness and stability to my AFC. I find it to be too bright with my Sennheiser HD-600, and turn down the treble.

A new DAC in the $100 ballpark may change the nuances, [EDIT] but is a secondary consideration after the amp upgrade.

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Precisely the quandry I was in maybe 2 years ago. @Torq kept telling me - and illustrating what the power delivery of my DFB was, and why it was not really adequate for the HD-6xx. I was obstinate. I thought it did a dandy job. The HD-6xx/HD-650 is a curious beast. You don’t need that much power to DRIVE it to a loud enough level for general listening. You need the power to give better control to the dynamic drivers. Nowhere does Sennheiser really admit this. But when I upgraded my amp power - first using the iFi xDSD, and later with the Schiit Lyr 3, the HD-6xx sounded like a much better headphone. Bass was much tighter. Everything is cleaner and more precise. It just is. Almost all people who have tried more power - even when not louder - have found this is so with this particular headphone.

One other issue with ALL Dragonflies (Dragonflys ?) is that the are DAC/AMPs and do NOT have a real line-out mode. Again I was schooled by @Torq, and again, he was 100% correct. Trying to drive an amp with a DFB (or even my other Dragonfly, the Cobalt - I like them for their appropriate use) is just running an amp at the rails into another amp.

You will do better to find something that has a true line-out mode. I sometimes run the xDSD in line-out mode connected to the Lyr 3, for example. It sounds very good with the HD-6xx.

This is just a comment on your post. I’m not commenting on options or solutions. But I know from personal experience the little gotcha’s of the DFB. (1.2 volts output - yes, @Torq I remember).

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Hello from a newish member…and a question. At home I’m playing music through my MacBook Pro with a pair of Audio-Technica ATH A700X’s (which I love), but I have no experience with any other decent headphones. Outside the house, just my iPhone and basic Apple earbuds that come with the iPhone. I’d like to move up to something wireless and wondering if available options with noise cancelling will allow me to listen to music while running a lawn mower or weedeater? With a modest budget and no idea if something like Audio-Technica ATH-ANC300TW’s, Sony WF1000XM3’s or Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless 2‘s will work for that, or do I need to go with something over the ear like the Sony WH-1000XM4…but I don’t know if those will even work for that kind of noise protection? I’d appreciate any thoughts or guidance…

Thanks in advance,
Kenn

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Yes, they’d all work, and some year-over-year upgrades don’t matter much. All active noise canceling products have quality limitations, but they can be the best option too.

Beware sweat when wearing headphones while working. Beware. Because of this, you might do better with tight sealing in-ear monitors/earbuds from a company like Etymotic (wired). They keep out external sound very well.

The household has the Sony’s. For noise cancelling they are very good. Won’t completely eliminate the sound of a lawnmower but will reduce it enough to make it worthwhile. SQ is decent but I wouldn’t use them for critical listening. For around the house just casual listening they are fine. They maintain connection well and have really good battery life. There is also a new version released not too long ago, not sure what makes them different.

My only issue with the Sony’s are that the cups are a little small.

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I think it’s important to note, none of these are cancel enough noise to adequately qualify as real hearing protection.

Thanks for the info…and I’ll check out the Etymotic’s!

Kenn

Thanks for your comments!!

Kenn

That’s a very good point. There are active protection products with a Noise Reduction Rating (NRR = 22 dB below):

https://www.amazon.com/Howard-Leight-Honeywell-Amplification-Electronic/dp/B001T7QJ9O/ref=sr_1_5?crid=5IGSPYIFI6VN&dchild=1&keywords=shooting+active+hearing+protection&qid=1600717005&sprefix=shooting+active%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-5

The over-ear headphones from Bose, Sony, etc. do block noise. I’m not aware if any of them at all have been tested as hearing protectors. Long ago I saw some ‘ambient aware’ ear plugs (such as for concerts) with a mere 6 dB NRR.

EDIT: The site below has some NRR headphones with radios and Bluetooth.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&ipp=48&Ntt=headphones

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I just wear wireless ear buds under my ear protection when I’m running my table saw or other noisy things.

It’s the reason I have kept the Sennheiser true wireless II buds, the Sony buds don’t fit with the 3M cups over them.

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I often double-plug: 29 dB foam disposable in-ear plus another 29 dB Peltors.

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Thanks for the input! I’ve probably been thinking about this wrong…as in “Noise Cancellation equaling Protection”. I’ve been doing a LOT of gardening and yard work the last 18 months, and listening to music and news through my phone (2 to 6 hours a day) and putting in ear plugs when running the mower and weed eater. After spending 3 hours mowing a huge yard for a neighbor, I started thinking about the noise cancelling aspect of some headphones and earbuds I’d seen on Amazon, and wondering if they would allow for listening to music while mowing…not so much for protection, as for entertainment while mowing. I Guess I have more research to do… Weed eater is gas powered and noisy enough to require protection…mower is not so loud, but to noisy for standard Apple earbuds that came with the iPhone.

Kenn

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That’s a good idea. I’ve been looking at something for passive protection and since I have serviceable wireless buds it’s become more appealing.

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alternatively, I suppose you could take Porta Pro drivers and glue them inside some peltor cups. hehe

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In case you haven’t thought of this - Drowning out something loud and unwanted (lawnmower) with something louder may seem like mission accomplished but you are probably exposing your ears to damaging volumes, especially when done for hours at a time.

You want to keep sound level low, which is why @ProfFalkin posted about the passive protection.

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That is one way, but active noise canceling (ANC) is NOT using a louder sound to drown out noise. ANC generates mirror-image sound waves to literally make the original sound disappear for the listener. One can keep the volume low with either ANC or an effective passive system, or combine them for the most effective solution.

Good question. I’ve reduced the noise from the lawnmower by going electric. Same for the weedeater. This permits me to use my Koss Porta-Pros, or some IEMs to work. But it doesn’t stop the sweat at all, and even with electric lawnmower, I turn up the sound louder than I ought.

Depending on how sensitive you are to things in your ears, you might find that an IEM with the right tip - a two flange model like some Spinfits - will block a lot of sound. The use case you have is very clearly not a case for ultra-high quality sound. I do have a suggestion. I use wired 1More triple drivers most of the time now for lawn work because the mic is good with my iPhone, and there sound is fine for casual listening. I see that they have a THX certified wireless ANC model, that claims 39db noise reduction in one mode.


I would expect that they might fill the bill for several types of use. Thanks for asking the question, it made me look.
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