I don’t think there’s a reason to buy more than one DAC, especially if you have already heard one that you like. I’d recommend that you enjoy listening to the music and not worry about what you might be missing.
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I haven’t heard the Stellia yet, but I have heard the Utopia.
In my opinion the Clear is the more neutral headphone. The Utopia was way too bright for me. It had excellent detail, but they also decided to bump up the upper mids to enhance the perception of detail, which wasn’t necessary imo. It was very fatiguing for me.
@Rhodey owns the Stellia and previously owned the Clear. Maybe he can describe the differences?
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I haven’t heard an LCD4 it’s on my list to pick up.
I like the D8000 Pro a lot, it has the best Bass reproduction (dynamics and staging) of anything I’ve listened to, but they have a relatively intimate (though very well defined) stage and the mid range is slightly recessed and that might not work for Choral, in particular (I’ll admit it’s the one form of classical I don’t enjoy).
The Verite might be a better choice, I really like it’s mid range Timbre, but it doesn’t have the resolution of some of the other flagships.
And personally I’d spring for a good DAC at the Bifrost 2 level, a lot of lower quality DAC’s sound more alike than different, but there is a pretty obvious step up in that 500-1K range and others beyond that, but those are out of budget.
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Ok, I think I get your point now. If you’re ok knowing that a headphone driven by a smartphone isn’t going to sound the same as when it is driven by a dedicated dac + amplifier, then we’re on the same page. Some headphones are more forgiving in this area than others.
I just want to be sure you’re not expecting a Sennheiser HD800 to sound just as good from an iPhone as it would on a Matrix X-Sabre Pro feeding a DNA Stratus.
I’m assuming you’re ok with the above? If yes, we’ve got room to play.
And for what it’s worth, I completely agree - people blatantly and grossly overstate X is good only with Y and Z on forums (even here, occasionally). I’m sure bias, prejudice, and ego on some kind of subliminal level are to blame. I digress…
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Welcome, Solan. Nice first post. I’m not qualified to answer, as I am still waiting for both my adolescent growth spurt and my midlife crisis, even though I have a dozen years on you. While I’ve been reluctant to commit flagship budget levels, I have been watching those threads were people do.
Will Rogers said there is the rare man who can learn by reading, the few who can learn by observing others, and the many who must pee on the electric fence for themselves.
My observations have been that there is no *One Ring to Rule Them All”.
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I still need to catch up on all your posts and will in due course. Nice pickups. I’m a fan of Andrew Jones including his UniFi series. The Focals will be more energetic/forward/bright compared to the Elacs.
For speaker setups, additional considerations compared to headphones include floorstanding vs stand mount, high sensitivity (including single driver) vs low sensitivity speakers which impacts proper pairing with tubes or solid state amps and whether to include a subwoofer, and there will be more options in the type of amp (for tube amps single ended vs push pull, for solid state amps Class A vs AB vs D).
I’d recommend focusing on the type of speaker and amp setup you want, and then worry about the DAC later. The aforementioned determinations will likely have more of an impact on sound compared to the DAC selection. Good luck.
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So very true. That’s how I look at it, but the room also comes into play as well on speakers. To little or to large can be an issue.
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Oh absolutely not! The Senn HD800 are among those I would consider, given what I have read. I listened to it at B&H in New York many years ago, but thought it sounded too “thin”, but I very strongly doubt they had amped it well, and therefore gave it a mark for listening to another day with better amping before discarding it. And if HD800 were indeed the best choice for my preferences, I’d expect the share of money going to source would be much greater, given how cheap the HD800 is compared to the rest of the Flagship field.
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How do Bifrost 2 DAC compare to the other recommended DAC (Combo unit) in this thread, the Benchmark DAC-3?
Are those recessed mids within what may reasonably be fixed via EQ, or is that anathema?
Reasonable price, too. Which kinds of headphone can it drive?
Tubes are very romantic, so my inner steampunker is attracted to the technology. But what matters is sound, so whichever does the job, wins. But given otherwise equal competitors, I’d choose tube for the romanticism.
You’re the second to recommend it, so I will look seriously into that. How does it compare to its bigger sisters Utopia and Stellia? I am writing this, even as @ValentineLuke and @generic have replied to the question, so I am only asking to get a variety inputs and perspectives.
Also wondering about the comparison to LCD-4 and to D8000 pro. My big hope is to have narrowed the field so much that I might even get a chance to hear the few remaining contenders before buying.
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Welcome to the forum.
To reiterate others, I don’t believe there is a single solution that wins in each category.
Given your budget and focus on vocals, emotional timbre, stage, mids, and tight bass, one possible system option:
$1500 – ZMF Auteur/Aeolus/Eikon depending on whether you want open or closed (ZMF wood cups and tuning have a special way with vocals and timbre especially, without compromising other sonic aspects; I’m not mentioning Verite Open/Closed in order to leave room in your budget for tubes and multiple ZMF pads);
$2000 – DNA Starlett (headphones only) or ZMF Pendant (with preamp output) or ampsandsound Mogwai OG (with speaker output) – these are all single ended (not push pull) in order to deliver even-order harmonics that play well and enhance vocals/instruments/emotion;
$700 – Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC;
$150 – Schiit Loki tone control/EQ;
Tubes: Amperex Holland made Bugle Boy to highlight mids/vocals, Telefunken for maximum detail/stage/imaging and transparency, Mullard/Mazda for low end bass and high end detail (I don’t perceive my Mullards as warm (which others do) and I’m bass sensitive; they and Mazda have dynamic punch while still having sparkle and detail in the top end, with the Mullard being more balanced throughout if I had to distinguish).
The above is one of multiple possible approaches. Good luck.
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The HD800 are thin sounding. That’s why it needs a good chain. It’s almost like you’re having to fight the properties of the headphone - counter what it does bad with source selection and amp pairings, and at the same time hope you’re also highlighting what it does well. Finicky headphone.
Focal Clear and Stellia might be about the best places to start looking, IMO.
Others have already chimed in with other really good suggestions. It’s really ridiculously stupidly hard to find a chain that’s head and shoulders better than a Bifrost 2 > ECP T4 > Stellia/Clear setup for under $5000. Different flavors of good, sure, but better? Hmmm…
Disclaimer: The Clears aren’t my thing, but I won’t dispute how good they are.
You can probably pester @TylersEclectic about that setup. I think he’s run that chain for quite a while.
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Very true about the room and thoughtfully matching the speakers. Let’s not put Maggies in a closet, nor expect stand mounts to rock out a great room.
I think this video spoke to your point: https://youtu.be/f9lFq8pC6aQ
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I have not owned Stellia or Utopia, only tried them at Can Jam.
The general consensus is Clear is 90% of Utopia, but opinions vary. At the price point it’s a great headphone. If you want to try something different, take a look at ZMF headphones. Real works of art. Lots to read about. I have an Aeolus, and will probably be buying a Auteur soon. Verite is their flagship.
Sennheiser HD 800S is another premium can. Not sure how that fits into your bass needs though.
No Audeze for me. Too heavy.
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@Earmuffs has a Kenzie for sale. I have two of them. Great tubed headphone amp.
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I don’t EQ so I can’t answer that.
To be honest outside some irritating trebble, frequency response is about the least important part of a headphone to me, I can pretty much listen through anything once I give it 20 minutes to adjust.
I’m much more interested in resolution, staging, dynamics as long as the FR issues aren’t severe.
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@Solan, I haven’t heard the Clear or Utopia, but if you’re in the market for a closed headphone, the Focal Stellia is worth trying. It has the amazing Focal ability to reveal everything (you’ll hear 2 cellos and also the person breathing 10 feet away from the cellists. It is definitely not muddy and has very tight bass, although some might argue it has a little too much bass. And based on what I’ve read about the Clear and Utopia, it has smoother highs than those two, which suits my preferences, as I don’t like a bright sound.
An alternative is the ZMF Verite, which I also think meets your requirements. I have the open, but I believe the closed has a similar sound signature. The Verite will sound a little warmer than the Stellia, but when you’re listening to the cellos, you will somehow feel the texture of the notes. There’s a certain magic when it comes to listening to stringed instruments on the Verite, whether it’s classical or rock.
What country or continent do you live in? When I’m buying expensive gear, I like to be in the same country (or continent) as the manufacturer or their dealer, in case I have to return it.
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Is the T4 still in production? Wasn’t there a parts issue re a transformer? Or is that fixed or am I an idiot.
Starlett = multiple month wait. Pendant and Mogwai more readily available.
These are all good suggestions, just wanted to point out some logistics. With your budget you won’t have to sell your liver or anything to get a really nice audio chain.
BF2 probably best value dac out there. If you want something special in a tube amp you’re looking around 2k to start plus tube rolling. Headphones are variable and can often be had used so you can score a flagship for a decent price. You’ve already been told all this though so I’m just typing for fun.
Don’t have specific suggestion outside of what has already been said as your musical preferences are different than mine, I’m not a vocals listener. I will just say that the Utopia with the right chain is fantaststic. I would really recommend reading @generic review/comparison that he linked to above. He’s more treble sensitive than I though.
5k should easily get you something endgame worthy.
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You’re not an idiot, even though you type for fun. Jk!
Justin with ampsandsound recently told me that there’s a 5 week lead time to build an amp. I understood that the Pendant wait time was 1 to 2 weeks, but not certain.
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No, yes, and yes.
I mean no. Wait, what?
Hehehe. Seriously though, I think he said the power supply transformer company was having some issues. The T4 is off the product page at Beezar, but hopefully covid-19 issues allow this to continue in the future. They do pop up for sale occasionally.
Also, endgame in mind, Starlett is worth the wait. Too many trusted ears support this. Pendant vs Mogwai depends on headphone pairings I imagine, tho I would personally go for the more neutral sounding Pendant having heard both. Ymmv
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