Thanks for your reply as well, Markm. I am trying to put together a new stereo as well. So may hit you up for some ideas on that. I’m kind of stuck right now on whether to go with powered or unpowered speakers. I can see some advantages in both. I think I want a 3-way design though, for better midrange. Or possibly a 2-way with subs. This will also be a lower-cost system that will (hopefully) deliver higher-cost results.
If I had the bux for the HD 800S, I’d certainly be interested in giving it a try. Have you tried any of the newer headphones I mentioned above though, like the HD 490 Pro or 550, or any of the new FiiO’s?
The FR on the 490 Pro with producer pads isn’t drastically different than the 800S. The FiiO FT1 Pro is also similar in some ways, though better extended in the sub-bass, and planar magnetic rather than dynamic. I haven’t owned any planar magentic headphones before, so that’s one of the reasons i’m interested in the FiiO.
Appreciate the suggestion on this as well. I’ve heard a few less flattering things from the measurement crowd about the ZenDAC. I assume you’re mentioning this because it’s R2R like the Schiit MM2.
Nope. I bought many headphones in that class in years past, but moved up and don’t even look at that tier any more.
I could not care less about what the measurements crowd thinks. I bought the THX AAA 789 back in the day because it had about “the best” measurements of any amp at the time. It’s a great product for finding technical flaws in the source, but it’s as pleasant as sliding down a razor blade into a frozen lake with many headphones. The bass is very weak. It sits boxed up and I’d happily get rid of it. In contrast, I brought my ZenDAC to the office and still use it.
The ZenDAC has audible flaws (e.g., roughness, flatness). The original Bifrost 2 cost a lot more and also had audible flaws (e.g., rumble, poor imaging). Still both of these have treble that is easy on my ears. Many ESS and AKM DACs have piercing, whining artifacts.
As I’ve written in other posts, I object to the measurements crowd because they take a narrow and rigid approach to measurements. For a human, human perception matters more than any given arbitrary number. Sometimes there’s a strong correlation between human and machine data, and sometimes not. Often, humans collapse differences into coarse categories and render measurements irrelevant. See research on the placebo effect. See research on just-noticeable differences.
Try for yourself.
I have not tried the Atom 2. I have tried several other ESS 9018 based DACs in the under $300 price range, and found them to be a bit edgy. With lower end Delta-Sigma all of the supporting implementation makes a big difference and the cost of the Atom 2, with it’s pretty box nice lights etc, means that they had less to spend on the guts.
@generic @Lou_Ford and I are usually in agreement about the value of the measurement crowd. Trust your ears. I suggest listening to Currawong’s review of the MM v2 on the Schiit website. The MM has the Unison USB which is useful if you are not using TOSLINK. I agree with Currawong that it sounds much like a slightly less detailed BiFrost 2/64 - a DAC in the $700+ class.
Lou suggest the AKG based Wiim Pro Plus, and the few AKG based DACs I have heard were preferable to the ESS 9018. My preference in older DAC chips were the Burr-Browns that are often used by iFi. I have a TEAC DAC that uses them which does not exhibit artifacts. Burr-Browns tend to be just a bit relaxed sounding.
Like @generic I stopped shopping for headphones in the Sennheiser 600 class years ago, except for special use like wireless with noise cancellation.
Pay close attention to what generic says about perception. He knows his stuff in that regard. Also don’t forget that you can sell equipment you don’t like and get something else. The MM2 will likely hold its value within $50 for some time.
You mean AKM…not AKG…
Wiim Pro Plus currently on sale (Amazon Prime Day) for $175
I limit myself to no more than $250 per year for audio stuff made in China (no carryover). The MM2 is undoubtedly a better DAC, and if the streaming functionality of the Wiim is a non-factor, then the MM2 is surely a better buy.
The whole system is less than the cost of a Bifrost! But you’ll have to pull the trigger soon while there is still some stock of Valhalla 2 and MM2 available.
Best wishes, whatever you decide to do.
I’ve been using the 490 Pro for several weeks now as my office setup, and it does have HD 800 S characteristics. I may get flack for saying it, but I wouldn’t hesitate calling it a baby HD 800 S. It’s just about as comfortable for me, that’s for sure. With EQ I think it is one of the best option under 500.
I don’t think you or I or @pennstac are going to convince @ADU to ignore the measurements crowd and use his ears to judge. If it measures good it must sound good, right?
@ADU if you really do want something adjacent to a “premier” listening experience you are going to be in the $1K region imo.
If you are considering new gear I’d suggest a Schiit Asgard X or maybe Jotunheim 2 with a Mesh DAC card, which by all accounts sounds very good and measures well also. If you got a used Jot 2 and purchased the DAC card yourself you could save some additional $ to put towards your headphone(s).
Just a thought…
Nor do I, given his numerous posts on measurements. Still, forums are read by 100x more people than those who post anything. Responding serves to (1) assist persuadable people who happen to see this, and (2) perhaps help to control AI algorithm dogma, wishful thinking, and hallucinations.
Based on my own listening history, measurements can be attractive to those on a budget or with limited experience. Measurements come across as a quick-and-easy a priori decision tool that saves a lot time and money in finding “the best,” or in finding a cheap giant killer. It’s too bad it doesn’t work in the real world.
Listening for yourself = 100% relevant data = personalized body measurements.
For general consideration, premier lies well beyond that price. My main setup cost between $6K and $7K, and it’s just nibbling at the edges of premier. I don’t notice its limitations unless I pay close attention. Still, I was blown away by a perhaps $20K RAAL setup I heard, and I dearly wish I could tolerate the $5K Utopia’s treble.
Very much this.
to be fair I think most of the measurement focused DAC’s and amps, sound similar or at least all have the same “flaws” to my ears. None of them are “bad” per se, but they wouldn’t be my choice.
Unfortunately most people can’t easily A/B a lot of things, and getting suggestions from other users is a bit of a crap shoot, since you have no idea what someone is really looking for.
I like the HD650 for example, but I’m not sure someone new to hifi headphones would get it. If the HD800 is your thing, it’s fantastic for what it is, but a lot of people will not tolerate the compromise.
I have a lot of cheaper gear lying around, that I rarely use and can’t be bothered selling, I sometimes do sell a piece because someone is looking for one, or I give one to a friend and when I do I often put together a cheap system on my desk to listen to it on, just to verify it’s working. I am always impressed by just how good those systems are.
I could pretty easily get away with say a WiiM Streamer/DAC, an SW51+, and an HD6XX.
I use the HD6XX in part because I’m very familiar with it, and in part because i like the presentation.
There are many entry level DAC’s that I could also live with in that system because the SW51 takes the edge of the worst of them, and you really need to be in BF2 territory to get a good sized step up in DAC performance IMO.
Amplifier wise there are other options, but it’s mostly about my preferences.
There are a LOT of very good systems you could build under $1000 that sound very different to each other, that are all great in their own way.
IMO Pick a headphone and go from there, start with something not terrible in the electronics department, and decide what it’s missing.
I think It’s a bit of an arbitrary definition.
My primary headphone system would be north of $50K if you just added up retail prices (I didn’t pay that for it, just a somewhat lower insane amount), that’s an extreme, expenditure, and yes it’s night and day to me over any $1000 system.
BUT and it’s a big but I’ve been into Hi-fi for 30+years and comparing pieces of Hi-fi gear and obsessing about the tiny differences for most of that time.
And I can honestly say when I listen well put together systems in the $1K range they still sound very good, and if your new to higher end gear, I don’t think you could come close to justifying the difference in cost for the difference in quality.
But for the vast majority of us with expensive setups we didn’t jump from $1K to $50K either, we heard better systems and we moved piece by piece.
I went from a $100 DAC to a $300 DAC to a $800 DAC to a $3000 DAC to a $5000 DAC to a $… DAC.
I did the same thing with headphone Amps.
Headphones I’d pretty much maxed out before most of the big electronic spends.
My possibly controversial 2c on diminishing returns in Hifi, yes from the standpoint you have to spend exponentially more to get a leap in performance, but the leap is always there if your willing to shell out for it. That’s not to say there aren’t bad sounding expensive systems.
I followed the title of this post and want to communicate something like an honest A to F letter grading scale. The point of diminishing returns is quite low. Every time I pull out my HD 600 and put it on a $200 amp, I’m amazed at how good it sounds. With long sessions its limitations become obvious. So, “solid value that’ll please most people” – yes. “Premier” – not in a million years. This follows demoing hundreds of systems at local audio stores and shows, plus my own growth.
My main system is: Bifrost 2/64 → Schiit Lokius → (factory upgraded) Decware Zen Taboo Mk IV → HD 800 S. The Bifrost and HD 800 S have known limitations, but the Lokius is just an EQ while the smooth and clear $3K Decware sounds as good or better TO MY EARS as many $20K amps I’ve heard. Easily.
I’m not compelled to upgrade because of other pricey hobbies, and because when listening to actual mixed-quality real music I’ve got to pay close attention to the HD 800 S and Bifrost 2/64 to hear their weaknesses. The Utopia is a quantum leap up in 3D imaging and range…and I’d have bought it if not for the treble. Following audio shows, I’ve seriously considered the LCD-5. For DACs, I like to try the next gen Schiit Yggdrasil aka “Byggy” too.
That Lokius of yours can’t fix the Utopia’s treble for you?
Nope. Nope. Nope. See my Utopia review. Weird, random stabs from even mild female vocals. I didn’t own the Decware back then, but I’ve demoed the Utopia a dozen times on other store/show setups too.
Icepick treble from out of the blue…everything else is great.
Agreed, I was being generous. But $1K will get you a setup that sounds decent, though there is a very large difference between that and $5K just to pick a nice round number. And here I’m talking amp and DAC, not even counting transducers in that number…
This was my experience with a lot of entry level amps, I don’t really have the issue with the amps I use here, I thought it worked well even with the WA33, which can get a bit acerbic.
This could just be a me and my sensitivities vs you and your sensitivities thing though.
I will say my one complaint with the Utopia is just how sensitive it is, I could never completely tune out 60Hz hum on the DNA Stratus, though it’s an amp I think it pairs very well with. To be clear, I live in an area with minimal ambient noise, the hum was so slight I could only just barely detect it at night and only really confirm it was there by unplugging the headphone while wearing them.
I spent a frustrating month on my own hybrid amp design to figure out where the hum I could only detect through the Utopia was coming from and the fix required me to completely change the layout of the amp. I think anything with a high voltage transformer in the same case as the output circuit is going to struggle being completely silent with it.
I haven’t tried the Utopia with a Decware amp, I’d be more concerned about audible noise than the treble though basing that entirely on the few I’ve heard.
I’d have blamed my old amps too, but my later experience includes plenty of $5K and $10K amps. This included the TOTL amp from LTA running on a HoloAudio DAC. The Utopia comes across as being tuned to pick up everything, so once in a while natural resonances or harmonics interact to boost the ultra sensitive treble range.
Utopia = a fictional perfect place…
Agree about picks in treble, definitely there is something unpleasant, especially 6khz, also I noticed something at 9khz and 12khz.
Reducing them by 5db makes treble smoother for me.
I know I sound like a broken record on this, but the DSHA-3FN from Nitsch is pretty phenomenal with the Utopia, and ZMF dynamics as well.
It has a vanishingly low noise floor or “blackground”, and I think in part because of that it presents spatial cues and micro details at a level you don’t experience in most other amps. I was astonished the first times I listened with it. Plus it just sounds great, and hits hard when called upon.
I’m not saying it’s the “best” amp for Utopia, but it was designed with Utopia in mind. IDK that it would address your pain points with Utopia @generic, but it is a very worthy amp that I’m super happy with. It’s a keeper for me. 
It’s always interesting to see the baseline “main system” that we who have been living in the rabbit hole have found good enough.
I sort of have several main systems, not counting my venerable speakers in the living room. My primary setup is not that dissimilar to @generic 's but forks after the BF2/64 to either a modified STAX SRM T1S tube hybrid amp to my Hive Nectar eStats or to a Lyr3 with the solid state tube replacement to Rosson RAD-0. I have a Loki nearby - but not in the chain.
I do have a Lokius in my office main system which has a vintage board-level restored Sansui AU-919 driving EgglestonWorks Nico Evo speakers and an SMS Micro 300 sub. (um not headphones) And the office quiet time system uses the Modi Multibit DAC to Eufonika to ZMF Auteur Classics.
I have heard better, but I’ve spent quite enough on the above that I’m not running out to upgrade further.
Like @Polygonhell I have a lot of cheaper gear that I don’t use so much laying around, and I’m not above gifting equipment or spending a hundred bucks here or there to help encourage a friend or young relative toward the hole of audiophile rabbits.
Please list the other pricey hobbies.
Mine include: