"Punching Above Their Price"

[taronlissimore]

@bigshel99

Not everyone but I completely get your point.

Ya I wasn’t a fan of the HD 6XX but that’s not because I thought it was bad, it just isn’t in line with my personal preferences.

@ValentineLuke

I think that perceived value is what makes something like Drop (Massdrop) so popular.

It’s funny because I actually think Massdrop offers legitimate value over perceived value as much as they may hurt the industry in other areas. Getting good end of life stuff for a fraction of the cost is great value. Of course some of the collaborations don’t pan out and there’s a bunch of trash to sift through but the Elex, 6XX, Noble K10 are all great buys. Whether or not the new path for Drop continues down that road is, well… a discussion for a different thread.

@Torq

Focal Elegia

Closest thing to a truly neutral, reference-class, closed back headphone - with fewer artifacts from being closed than pretty much anything else. Even with higher-end models from elsewhere most are a “fun” (U or V shaped) tuning, or too specialized, until you run into the Vérité Closed and focal Stellia.

I’d agree with you there. I do think the Elegia are a great pair of headphones and with how similar they are to the Clear in tonality they are severely underrated. And until the A2C came along, the competition in the sub $2k closed-back realm was pretty sparse and frankly not very good.

@Torq

HEDD Audio HEDDphone

A first entrant that, after a couple of weeks listening, I would say pretty much tops everything I’ve heard around its price, several models well above its price, and manages to best some much more expensive units in some individual technical areas. Possibly redefines its segment (though may also result in price increases from other manufacturers as they update/replace their similarly-priced models).

Definitely agree with you here. I’d say the HEDDphone and the Verite would be my two picks up until the LCD-4 and Utopia. While I really enjoy the RAD-0 I think that it’s just the right price right now but doing back to backs with the HEDDphone the RAD-0 still has that natural tonality that I enjoyed when I first tried it out 8 months ago but the HEDDphone beats it in almost every other category (except for looks of course).

@Torq

RAAL-requisite SR1a

Literally bests every headphone I’ve ever heard, at any price point, all the way up to Sennheiser’s $55,000 HE-1 (“Orpheus II”). Redefined what was possible in a headphone, while coming in at a lower cost than any of the legitimate flagships.

I was very impressed with the SR1a when listening to them at your place this summer and even more impressed when you came in to let me know that I had them on backwards! Haha. If they sounded that good backwards just imagine how good they would sound when they are the right way around. I keep trying to get a pair up to Vancouver and every time I do we end up selling them before they get here. After trying @TylersEclectic’s pair at the last Seattle meet it just re-affirmed my want for a pair in the office to get some actual time in with them.

@Torq

A disturbing proportion of Beyerdynamics, everything I’ve ever heard from Ultrasone, the HD700, Sony MDR-Z1R, Fostex TH900-Mk2, I think HiFiMAN still need to do a better job on their builds, particularly at the higher end and the Meze Empyrean would be a lot more interesting at $2,000.

Beyerdynamics are… interesting. I get why a lot of people enjoy their headphones but I don’t think I’ve lost enough of my hearing to enjoy the treble spikes that seem to be a part of every Beyer’s default tuning. @Resolve mentioned the Amiron home was a pretty decent tuning though.

The Ultrasone high-end line-up is pretty poor. You’re basically paying for the shiny design on their flagships and I think Tyll’s famous video sums up the experience pretty well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L34S4Tt1EuQ

I haven’t listened to the MDR-Z1R outside of CanJam Socal 3 years ago so my memory is a little clouded on it. I remember being pretty excited to listen to it as it was going to be be one of the first truly high-end closed-backs I had listened to and leaving severely disappointed. I’d have to take another run at them since it’s been so long.

For me personally, it’s mostly been on the IEM side where disappointment has happened. Westone TOTL, Shure’s TOTL (although I haven’t tried the KSE 1200), Noble’s UIEM line-up. The Hifiman HE1000se is also up there.

[senorx12562]

I am only interested in good sound (imho, of course) and I am broke, ergo pretty much every headphone I own punches above its price, otherwise I either wouldn’t be interested in it or couldn’t afford it. Poverty has a way of enforcing good value.

[ValentineLuke]

I’m with ya’, brother.

I like to think I have ‘golden ears’, but in reality I have a lead wallet.

[pwjazz]

@SenyorC

However, I will say that the KZ ZS10 Pro have replaced far more expensive Shure models for on stage monitoring while playing bass. For listening to music, I do find them fatiguing after a while, but for clarity while playing they compete with models 10 times their price.

The ZS10 Pro properly equalized and with cross feed has kind of ruined headphones for me. It played a role in me ditching my LCD2C, and whenever any of my current stable of headphones starts sounding wrong or uninteresting, I put in the ZS10 Pros and they sound both right and engaging at the same time.

[boxster233]

Wow. This would be fighting the Porta Pro for “punching above its weight” crown.

[pwjazz]

@Torq

Sennheiser HD58X

Speaking of Massdrop special editions, I’d say that the HE4XX punches above its weight. It’s basically an HE400i with better pads and arguably more durable build, at an even cheaper price than the HD58X. It’s a bit light on the bass and a bit heavy on the treble, but it has a very clear sound, more coherent soundstage than the HD58X and responds well to EQ in the bass so that you can season it to taste.

[ValentineLuke]

@boxster233

Wow. This would be fighting the Porta Pro for “punching above its weight” crown.

Blasphemy!

[pennstac]

Late to the topic. I don’t care for the boxing analogy, but what of that. Concur with Drop HD-58x and HD-6xx. Should point out Drop’s Porta Pro pricing, when available also.

I’d also suggest that Sennheiser IE 40 Pro IEM ($99, 10mm DD, pro audio market) probably is in this category, but my experience with better IEMs is too thin to assert it as a candidate.

[dRnRcR]

@Torq pretty much did a mic drop on this topic lol. But honestly it seems a good amount of people start the rabbit hole journey with HD650/6XX. Myself included.

I personally just don’t know how to find my way out of this rabbit hole and I’m not really trying too either.

[Resolve]

For me, the concept of ‘punching above’ has to be something that redefines the various benchmarks. So for example, the HiFiMAN Sundara punches above its price in my opinion because I think it’s better than everything under the Ananda (for strict sound quality), and it’s not just a little bit less expensive, it’s a lot less expensive - roughly half the price.

[ProfFalkin]

I hope Dr. Fang doesn’t read this. Punching above simply means they didn’t price it high enough.

[ValentineLuke]

I think they put a large portion of the build budget into the sound budget. A very large portion.

[Torq]

Nah, I don’t think so … they’re no more or less good sounding for their price than anything else out there, in aggregate - so if that is the case, it’s not getting them anywhere.

And the kinds of things that make a difference to sound or performance, such as using the strongest magnets available (improves efficiency and driver speed) are a VERY recent thing (I think most people were shocked when it became apparent they hadn’t been using neodymium magnets all along), not having chassis on $6,000 headphones that ring when you run your fingers over them, and so on are clearly not getting the budget.

[Torq]

@taronlissimore

I’d say the HEDDphone and the Verite would be my two picks up until the LCD-4 and Utopia.

Yep, that’s pretty much how I feel, if we’re sticking to conventional headphones. Otherwise it’d be the SR1a, but that’s a bit trickier.

Though, like you, I think the RAD-0 is pitched and priced appropriately at this point. There’s some trade-offs in both directions way between the RAD-0 and the HEDDphone … the RAD-0 being more comfortable, much easier to drive, better looking and the tonality being a little more natural and neutral.

But that’s pretty much it.

[ValentineLuke]

Yeah, I was kind of implying they don’t put much into the build, not really intending to praise their sound. I haven’t heard them. But I can see that their build is sketch.

[alhifi]

MR: The HFM 400i’s (price currently between $200-$300) is a GREAT example of giant killer, as are the oft-forgotten but excellent Koss Porta-Pro’s -as you mentioned.

Why Koss hasn’t offered a ‘Reference’ Porta-Pro is surprising; it’s a great portable can (and has been since it’s 1980’s introduction !) offering excellent, accurate SQ and a very comfortable, confident ‘fit’.

pj

[alhifi]

VL: I’ve never heard it said before: " …Golden ears, but lead wallet" . Priceless !

pj

[Scgorg]

If something punches “way above its price” then anything above its price but below the price you say it punches at is suddenly obsolete. If a 500 dollar headphone “punches above its weight” by a factor of 3 then suddenly that is the only headphone that is relevant between 500-1500, and that is just not the case. You could also say that it punches way above its price because it hits in the ballpark of the “average” 1500 dollar headphone, but that isn’t a fair comparison because almost nobody is gonna go out and buy that 1500 dollar ultrasone or grado. You should always have the best headphones at each price tier representing the tier. This means that even if a 40-dollar headphone sounds great it does NOT punch above its price unless it beats the current best 40-dollar headphones.

This is all my opinion but I think the term “punches above it’s price” is a crock of shit that has been overused way too much. There are genuine cases of something redefining performance at the price but those releases are exceedingly rare.

[alhifi]

(RE: “… anything that I get enjoyment out of I consider a good purchase, anything I don’t is a waste, no matter the price” )

VL: That sums it up rather well. In fact, that excellent, simple statement supplants all of the clever graphs expected to translate into purchases that, ultimately (in this case), speaks to the heart/mind/ear (i.e. sound quality sophistication).

Many seasoned listener’s continue (rightfully) to appreciate the immense contributions to SQ when/if a new product is introduced (be it premium cable, DAC, power-supply/“conditioner”) causing one to reevaluate what they thought they knew of their sound systems.

A case in point; about 15-years ago I had the opportunity to enlighten some videophiles.
I played some music and asked what they thought of the loudspeakers I asked them to evaluate/comment upon.
I was surprised at the one guy’s comments as I felt it was very accurate. I asked them to turn around, and return 60-seconds later. I played the same song/volume, and the listener’s
interpretation was a near 180 (degrees) from his previous observations; as in one sounded clean/bright/articulate and the other thick, dull, crappy. Quite taken aback, they asked “What did you do?”
" I replaced the power cord"I replied. Both were astonished. In the end, they left saying “never again will I doubt what I just experienced/heard”. Flabbergasted they were.

Moral of the story ? In the beginning (first sample/audition) the listener correctly identified the important SQ characteristics of the loudspeakers. But then, was shocked/confused when the second ‘test’ resulted in a noticeably poorer SQ.-yet everything remained the same! -but the cable feeding the amplifier, a non-audio-signal cable at that ! So what then, were we actually “hearing”? If I had cable No.2 in the system, most listener’s would leave with an (entirely wrong) interpretation of what they thought were the loudspeakers inherent characteristics but was clearly shown not to be ! (Yes, such differences exist and can be quite profound -as it was in this case.)

Such revelations abound, and cause an assortment/flurry of new observations that puts a real kink into any chart designed to put such factors (and resultant ‘improvements’) into chart-form is dubious at best.

The leap from a Mazda/Nissan sports car to a Porsche ‘911’ is considerable -not the least of which would be the price discrepancy. On paper, that 370Z (or ‘Mustang’, ‘Camaro’ etc.) have respectable and even comparable “numbers” to the car that is 2-4X more money. BUT, that seat-of-the-pants ‘tour-de-force’, excitement and sheer feel/thrill of the driving experience is what compels many (that can afford it) to confidently proclaim “OMG, that was/is amazing” -in another league /planetary system altogether. For the connoisseur, there is no comparison between the competitors and the Porsche. But where should the Porsche be positioned on the Bell curve; lower, mid, hi-level ? Yes it’s a $100-$200K car, but many competitor’s (to Porsche) are considerably more expensive, easily doubling/tripling in price.

In other words, the notion of diminishing returns depends entirely on one’s understanding and appreciation of the topic/subject- how ‘in-tune’ are they to the experience offered by said product? You and I are likely quite different in that regard. Does that imply/suggest we need multiple Bell curve carts that take such things into account ? It’s easy for things to get (rightfully) complicated when analyzing value/return/ROI proposition/charts.

And that returns us to VL’s sensible take: " To be honest, anything that I get enjoyment out of I consider a good purchase, anything I don’t is a waste, no matter the price".

pj

[Torq]

@Scgorg

This is all my opinion but I think the term “punches above it’s price” is a crock of shit that has been overused way too much.

It is overused, though less so than “giant killer”.

But the rest of your post suggests some overly simplistic assumptions - for example, that everyone only considers performance or value when buying, and that’s definitely not the case. Not in audio, and not in any other domain either.