The Electrostatic Game

General Headphone Discussion
21

I had a chance to try the Sonoma Model One headphone system. Here are the GRAS measurements:

Model One
Model One1600×844 213 KB

The good:

  • Spectacular detail capability - especially for treble frequencies.
  • Reaaallly fast, tight, and well controlled sounding.
  • Excellent tonal balance and tuning overall.

The average:

  • Bass performance is only okay, not as good as the rest of it, leaving it somewhat ‘sterile’ sounding.
  • A slight emphasis to 10khz adds a hint of ‘shimmer’ character to it. It’s still appropriate for tonal balance, just a touch hot.

The not so good:

  • Somewhat wimpy sounding for dynamics - lacks the ‘fun’ found in other headphones available at this price.
  • Odd and somewhat disjointed soundstage. Very open sounding, with appropriate lateral definition, but the center image lacks forward presence and depth.

Here’s the video review:

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22

I watched this and when you said the dynamics were poor I thought to myself, well that rules this out for classical. Then you go ahead and recommend it for classical. Harrumph! You aint listening to the right stuff my friend.

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23

I tend to recommend really punchy headphones for people who like modern genres or more upbeat kinds of stuff - while for classical music I find that punch isn’t really as required. Dynamics is a catch all term here, and many use it to mean different things, but for me it’s not that big a deal when listening to my favorite classical and jazz tracks on the HiFiMAN Arya or Ananda for example, and those definitely don’t have much for punch and slam.

Note - dynamics isn’t being referred to here as ‘dynamic range’, as we might find with SPL and FR, but rather driver excursion.

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24

I’ll accept that… for now. :wink:

Agree that can be a somewhat confusing term and it’s a fair point. I was just getting at the idea that classical can often be thought of as laid back and mellow when it can be completely and gloriously the opposite.

I’d be curious what the Sonoma would sound like without the dsp. Makes buying it without the amp, if you even could, a dicey experience unless you’re prepared to EQ.

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25

“Driver Excursion” punch and slam are imo related to dynamics

Thinking of music as simply organized kinetic energy, poor dynamics indicate to me the driver’s inability to change from that lower output to a HIGHER, OR Higher to Lower output state FAST enough to sound real

There’s also the sensation of that kinetic energy against our skin.ears ect… so if a driver cannot accommodate that sudden SHIFT from one point to another FAST enough it will often lack a realistic dynamic range AND might also come across as sounding “soft” of lacking tactility or literally enough kinetic force to be felt,

Tho there’s also the matter of High to Low and Low to High, a realistic shift from Low to High will create that PUNCH or tactility, and some drivers do Low to High realistically and some are exaggerated, but they still sound Punchy

Then there is High to Low, being too fast High to Low makes things sound fake… ideally I’d like both PUNCH and tactility from that realistic Low to High and a realistic High to Low

I feel like on the right system 009 has amazing tactility but it “settles” from a high energy state to a lower one a bit too fast sometimes, HD 800 on the other hand seems more able to accommodate both the SUDDEN shift from high to low and low to high states of output in a manner that is more realistic but it sometimes doesn’t QUITE have that SLAM or weight I’m wanting

That said I feel 009 has more SLAM because it adjust to those low to HIGH shifts faster and often times it’s too fast because it’s settle from that High state into a lower one well too quickly,

Now imo some of the PUNCHY hifiman headphones are like the 009, tooo fast, my HE 4 was VERY much too zippy and fast. Sounded really cool but often fake, if Model 1 doesn’t have a TON of punch but sounds realistic enough low to High and nails the High to Low

It should do classical well, tho classical really demands perfection all around. There’s so much translated thru both the frequency and time domains, HD 800 does better for most of the classical I enjoy tho 2/5 times there’s a track where 009 does better

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26

Yeah this is often how I’ve thought of it - but it inevitably runs into conversations about the term ‘dynamics’ being used in other areas.

I’m starting to just talk about ‘punch and slam’ instead, because we know it when we hear it, and we know when it’s not there.

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27

You want to cause issues start talking about microdynamics and plankton.

Most folks can understand macrodynamics pretty easily I think, but breaking it down into dynamic range and punch/slam isnt a bad idea.

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28

Things that are hard to grasp till you’ve heard them in playback or recognize them in actual music

Both are a bit difficult, as some rooms don’t have proper acoustics to really give “plankton” room to breathe both in playback nor while listening to your own instruments

But that’s my take, ymmv

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AAARRRGGGGHHH ! I try to research terms I am not grokking. @perogie @Resolve. I searched and found 7 references to “plankton” on the forum. Then I started googling Audio Plankton. Found there is an electronics co. There was an article about plankton in Puget Sound. There was a discussion I was not able to find on SBAF. Then Spongebob got involved:

I’m still not grokking what plankton is in this context, though I’ve been beached due to red tide.

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I guess Marvey removed a lot of what he wrote off SBAF and relegated it’s definition to or for those who can attend in person to grasp

Frankly, don’t bother over it. Pick up an instrument and learn what happens when you touch it, adjust the weight of your touch your position ect…

Still imo the little things are easy to grasp when you get a feel for how they find they way into music, in the same vein go outside and listen to birds sing… try to really capture how it sounds but also how it hits your ears literally

For me there’s… a number of “little things” that separate systems that sound REAL from those that don’t, I imagine plankton is an attempt, successful or otherwise, to define these “little things”

Go listen to a recording and you’ll get a feel for what’s “missing” what separates playback from reality, and the more you get a feel for what distinguishes reality from playback the easier it will be imo to hear/find/appreciate a system with a truly “hi fi” or high fidelity play back

Again I always felt like Plankton was an attempt to define this difference between reality and not

The problem tho is even if your system can render this “difference” it needs to have also been captured during recording and preserved during mix’ing/mastering

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31

I’m not sure why they don’t just call it microdetail. I’ve seen people going back and forth saying there is a difference between micro detail and plankton. Gets esoteric even for me.

If I want to go audiophile snob I’d say it’s microdetail that’s engaging.

I have heard a few people talk about that if you find some headphone or speaker that really sucks you in and you can’t tell why it’s probably the microdetail that you are hearing and not realizing it. Maybe.

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32

Reality vs playback

But yea what you spoke of that makes sense, micro detail that’s “engaging” tho what “engages” each of us as listeners differs a little

Some things that my ears pick up as “distracting” or “offensive” and prevent my perception of that “engaging” microdetail will differ from yourself and others

Tho “esoteric” seems to be what defines them, still Marvey encouraged me to listen to a “tube of worth” and hearing a Pristine Moth 2A3 build I grasped at what could be had with playback, the a double bass on that system with just an Auteur was shockingly realistic

Also back to the question at hand, start with Koss 95X swapping to the Angle’d Velour Hybrids and removing the stock foam makes enough of a difference imo to merit the $80 purchase and wait

Upgrading to a STAX amp makes a impact but imo not quite worth the asking price. Better Electrostats on those amps will go above and beyond 95X, but in my own home I find 95X a wonderful compliment to my 009, there’s so much that doesn’t sound proper on 009 and a tiny bit that’s… transcendentally good! Like 1/10

So for the other 9/10 95X is lovely, apparently 007 MK 2.9 is like this but I’ve not heard one to say if the asking price is worth it

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33

Interesting thought. But for me, it’s usually something like room acoustics or how instruments were miked that are a dead giveaway. I recall early experiments in an auditorium with speakers vs live performers. Headphones in particular give an intimacy that you won’t find unless you are on the stage.

But those are gross items. Spatial cues are another. My ears know where in the tree to direct my eyes for that bird.

I get that given some of those limitations, you can get some rather “realistic” reproductions of voice an instruments. Single piano recordings, can almost get real, if only because the piano is rarely a point source, and you’re highly influenced by position.

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34

This is closer to what I consider it, I describe it as hearing the room it was recorded in, hearing the mic or hearing the space around the instruments, which leads into staging.

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35

Yea! I agree with that too, my 009 and HD 800 handle different mic’ing differently

But I also listen for room acoustics too,

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Fair point. Yes, classical can, indeed, be quite the opposite of laid back. It’s a useful review, nonetheless, @Resolve. Thanks for that.

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