The Objective, Subjective & Dejected Thread

Yeah what we haven’t touched on all that much yet here is the importance of preference. There might be an optimal tuning for each person, but that’s not necessarily related to how people want their music to sound. Contained within that as well is what the expectations are. If you expect your music to sound like good speakers in a certain room, that may be different from the person who expects their music to sound like they’re in a concert hall - or maybe no room at all. Moreover, there are all kinds of additional psychoacoustic effects, and I know that’s kind of a dirty phrase to use because nobody likes being told that what they’re hearing isn’t what sound is doing in reality, but as Mad has pointed out, just because something is psychoacoustic, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t influence how we really are hearing a thing. Maybe it makes us pay attention in a unique manner that we otherwise wouldn’t - and so on.

Where my opinion differs a bit is that for me the psychoacoustic stuff is limited loosely to a kind of confirmation bias (purchase justification, physically large devices, price, marketing etc.), and I don’t think we’ve got the whole picture yet just from measurements to indicate what’s really there for sound quality. Maybe we are capturing/measuring it, but it’s not being interpreted to directly correlate with typical audiophile terms yet. I say yet because… well I want to do that one day haha.

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That would be the holy grail for customers.

I suspect manufacturers might want to circle the wagons and prevent it from ever happening!

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This is probably why none of @Chrono’s EQ profiles ever worked for me. The reciprocal is probably true as well. :smile:

Blame the game not the player. :man_shrugging:

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This is why it’s always important to read a couple reviews from a reviewer and not just one. With just one, you have no context of what they like / dislike and where they tend to gravitate for sound.

I’ve been reading / watching @Resolve’s reviews for the better part of two years and because of that I have a sense of his preferences and how they differ in some areas from mine and are similar in others. So something that he may not enjoy in a headphone could be exactly what I enjoy and if I were to write a review I would give that thing praise (hint: lots of bass).

It’s why measurements, much like analytics in sports, are a good way to get an overall picture but don’t always tell the full story.

I won’t say @Chrono has a larger head circumference but… :wink:

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Yet I am a big fan of oratory1990’s EQ profiles. :thinking:

But to reiterate I am claiming that this individual variation in FR only gets really significant above 10khz. Most of what we perceive as timbre occurs at lower frequencies so people should agree more than disagree about how a headphone sounds.

I think @Resolve is right that personal preference plays a much bigger factor in whether we agree with another person’s opinion of how good a headphone sounds. An exception might be sibilance since I’ve noticed that it seems to vary more than other characteristics in the reviews that I’ve read and it does center around 8khz(?), which is pretty high.

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LOL, that is so true. You’ve reached utopia (excuse the pun) when you understand the differences between a reviewer’s taste and your own.

Every time I hear @Resolve say the mids and highs sound great but he would EQ the bass down, I know it’s perfect for me and I won’t need to EQ. And @taronlissimore and I appear to have the same taste, so when he says he likes the sound, I know I’ll love it. So far, that’s worked for the Stellia and the Nio (which @Resolve recommended with the MX module, but of course I like with the M15 module).

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It’s funny because I typically EQ the bass shelf below 120hz UP to match the 2018 Harman bass shelf on most headphones haha. My main complaint with bass is that it’s often too bleedy into the mids. So I drop stuff around 200-300hz whenever that happens (looking at you Cascade…).

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Really? I thought you were using the 2013 Harman bass shelf.

I watched your 560S review last night and I see what you mean that certain headphones can be very sensitive to positional variance.

Also I’d like to say that the biggest reason I like and respect @Resolve’s reviews is because he is willing to do comparison reviews. I think talking about how different headphones compare to each other is much more valuable than a review “in a vacuum”.

So much about how we perceive something subjectively depends on what we use daily and/or last used. I’ve noticed this in car reviews for years and I think it applies to audio equipment even more. If you can find out what headphone a reviewer chooses to use daily, you can look at what the consensus is about that headphone and that should give you a good feel for what that reviewer’s preference and perspective are IMHO.

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I do in my reviews. Because I think it’s the more ‘normal’ or ‘neutral’ bass elevation, while the 2018 one borders a bit on basshead levels. But… secretly I like it :wink:

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I love this thread.

I am trying to get down to a relatively straight forward conclusion that can be easily understood by the average reader.

It’s no debate that sound interpretation (perception) is subjective, it differs from person to person. Many factors play a major role in this - structure of the outer ear, middle ear, and inner ear.

This video alone does a great job at explaining that, and I believe it didn’t even take into consideration the variance of pinna and concha, let alone other parts of the ear. The way we interpret sound is subjective, as said before, it is a perception of sound, our individual perception. This means that you essentially cannot trust human ears as a reference, purely due to their vastly different nature from person to person.


I myself started a research on how to test objectively if a headphone is sounds reference-grade. My research ended with a conclusion: you cannot do that - our ears are the limitation that make it a subjective thing. If we (humans) were the ones as to how reference-grade a headphone sounded, that would be our very own and personal perception of it, making it subjective. So, I concluded that the only way to create a truly reference-grade (flat frequency response, aka. as little coloration as possible) would be with the help of measuring systems - they do not have the challenges and variations that our ears have. G.R.A.S. does have their measurement systems that have “ears”, and I think that is kind of going a step back - the ear itself is what makes things impossible to be objective (because all of our ears differ), so adding that to a technical thing (measuring system) is giving it the exact problem we are trying to avoid… that ear is probably based on an average from idk how many human ears, but regardless, the frequency response would be based on that exact ear structure… which would make tuning biased to that exact artificial ear structure.

I concluded that the most perfect measurement system would be the one that does not have this and only has the microphone(s) and the plate that the headphones can be mounted on - much like the G.R.A.S. 45CC that Ollo Audio uses. This way you are just testing the ear-pads and headphone driver on their own, it would avoid reflections or other factors from the artificial ear structure that would affect the sound.


I decided to look at it this way (from this part on I will be specifically focusing on as to my conclusion regarding truly testing and creating a reference-grade headphone):

Our ears are the ones are imperfect, they are the ones that have limitations and imperfections that make them subjective, but there is also the factor of how an individual interprets and perceives sound. The only way to overcome this would be to not trust our ears but let the technology do its job - technology in this case are measuring systems with microphones, specifically the frequency response graphs from these systems. If you tuned the headphone according to this system, then it would truly be a flat frequency response (if you manage to tune it to this frequency response), and our ears would be the filters that interpret it in different ways… but at the end of the day that frequency response really is what it shows it is. This means that the interpretation of this frequency response would differ due to the subjective nature of our ears, but it still makes the true frequency response truly (at least according to the measuring system). This is similar to the concept of an absolute truth/universality in philosophy.

This frequency response method would be technically correct, and that is the most important thing, because you (as a manufacturer) cannot create a headphone individually for every person… I couldn’t find anything closer to being objective than this very method.

My research started because I wanted to prove whether Ollo Audio’s S4X is what it claims to be - and I knew that for my review I needed a different approach than my usual one. I could not objectively test whether it is a reference-grade headphone nor whether it has a flat frequency response just by listening to music and judging its performance. To test it, I had to find a way that is objective, an approach that doesn’t depend on my ears. The only objective way was to have a measuring system that would objectively do that for me, a system that doesn’t depend on our ears, our hearing health, and multiple factors and challenges that make our hearing subjective. This was the only way to truly test how uncolored or colored it is.

This headphone model was intended to be used as a tool for making music, not for listening to music, so if I was to use music to test its reference ability - it would be completely useless.

I mentioned that our ears are like filters, and here is why. As you already know, there is a limitation to what we can hear, which means that there could be sound “data” that exists but we cannot hear it, and a measurement system would not have this limitation, which is why I believe it is the only objective way to truly create a flat frequency response headphone. But it would have to be a raw measuring system, (specifically talking about not having artificial ears on it), here is why:
This is a quote from a long thread from another forum where I had this discussion:

It is like limiting a robot to rotate its arm to a certain extend, when you can very well let it rotate its arm 360˚. This is the simplest example I could make that would make sense to the average reader, if you are limiting the microphone measuring system with a pair of artificial ears, you are going against the grain, you are presenting it an imperfection that human ears face (it doesn’t matter if G.R.A.S. took 10, 10 000, or a million ears and based their fake ear on the average one, from the video above, you can see why this is a big problem), you are going a step back by doing that.

Why am I so crazy about the so called “reference-grade” nature and flat frequency response? Because it should be the rawest and most true form of sound. So my journey was how do you create a tool (a headphone in this case) that does exactly that - let you hear the sound without much coloration? Actually, it was “How can I objectively prove that this headphone does or doesn’t do what it claims to, but do it objectively, not subjectively?”

I post this here because I want to hear others opinion regarding this. It is an extremely controversial topic and a complicated one too. What do you think, how would you prove that a headphone truly can be used as a reference, meaning that it presents the sound in its “truest” forms? Ollo Audio’s claim is that S4X is flat out of the box, how would you objectively approach this? Is there even a thing like this?

Note: If you do answer, expect a healthy debate. I am not trying to argue with anybody, I just think this is an interesting topic that definitely has a lot of arguments present.

This is a lost cause unless you become the first human being to, via machinery, correlate sound waves in air to what a person experiences.

P.S. The inability to do this is why the audio industry exists. If there was “proof” that a headphone was ‘perfect’ no one would buy any other headphone.

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Do note that I am not trying to test how a human will hear it, but whether or not the frequency response (of the headphone, in this case Ollo Audio S4X) on its own is uncolored.

“Perfect” is subjective. Why? Simply because each user is looking for a different thing and quality - as you know we, the audiophiles, will spend hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars just for a single characteristic.

What I am interested in is uncolored sound signature - that as you already know… isn’t quite perfect to the ears, it is not meant to be the most pleasant to listen to - but it is meant to be the least biased and least altered

That seems like a waste of time since frequency response is only one aspect of headphone performance.

People don’t buy headphones to stare at the FR graph.

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Yes, but how else do you test a reference-grade headpone? Ollo Audio S4X is not meant for audiophiles who listen to music, but rather to those who have to use it as a tool to make music. Big big difference. This same reason why people don’t make music on audiophile loudspeakers. To this you can say “why would somebody buy a studio monitor when it is making your ears hurt”, well, they use it to make music for the listener… otherwise they would be limiting themselves to this particular sound signature from the audiophile speaker.

Of course I don’t use FR graphs for audiophile grade headphones, this is an exception of a headphone that is aimed at a completely different thing - and you cannot test it with ears due to the subjective nature of our ears and perception of sound

Are you seeing this as a problem unique to headphones or does it apply to studio monitors also?

I am specifically focusing on headphones - as loudspeakers are completely different and they don’t have the same principles applied.

As you read in the “audio engineer’s quest for reference headphones” thread, he went about it by mastering with headphones and seeing if it turned out the same as if he had mastered with known monitors.

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Hm, but that is subjective to his ears. That’s not something that can objectively be tested on a large scale, or not something that you could use to prove that a headphone truly is reference-grade, it is based on a personal experience, correct?

If you get the same results with a bunch of engineers, it’s a win.

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