The Spice Must Flow! - Official SPICY TAKES Thread

The HEADPHONE Community
41

idk dawg, like so many people are waiting for the 6 series to be dethroned that I don’t think they’ll turn up their noses when something that finally does it, esp if its decently priced.

I also think that like… idk, by basically any evaluative measure, the 6 series just gets midrange and treble reasonably right enough such that other headphones tend to just not be as enjoyable if you index highly for quality in those two areas.

But many people don’t index as hard in those areas, which is why plenty of people don’t like the 6 series, and to that end:
I think the more convenient explanation for newer people / IEM “people” not being all that fond of it is that they are indexing much more highly for the colorations that elicit novel experiences of the music they’re familiar with, and the 6 series is rather bereft of the colorations that bring those novel experiences to light vs. the typical “audiophile” headphone (extra bright for da detail) or IEM (bright and forward mids for da detail and da vocal emphasis)

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42

Midrange hearing loss is common among older men. So it’s not surprising that some audiophiles prefer a more mid-centered sound like you get on some of the 6 series headphones.

There may be a little too much going on there though on headphones like the HD600 for younger folk with normal midrange hearing. And that may explain why they like headphones that are a bit more relaxed in the mids, and with a bit more bass and treble.

Some older (and younger!) audiophiles also like to crank up the volume to excessive levels. And that may be another reason for preferring a more mid-centered response. Fletcher-Munson explains this.

This is another reason that many younger listeners, esp. those who prefer to listen at quieter levels so as not to destroy their ears, might prefer better extension and a bit more emphasis in the bass and treble. Or a little more of a “smile” in their headphone’s response.

I listen at lower volumes btw, and tend to prefer a neutral response with a slight smile, even though I’m a pretty old dude at 63 years of age.

Not one of my spicier takes, I’m afraid. So sorry bout that. :slight_smile:

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43
  1. There’s no such thing as “scales with” – if there is adequate power, there is adequate power.
  2. Individual HRTF variation is vastly overstated. We don’t each hear all that differently – otherwise we’d never be able to understand each other, develop culture and civilization, or prosper as a species.
  3. Comfort is overrated – you shouldn’t be listening to headphones for hours at a time. And if you are, and you’re struggling with neck weakness, get in the weight room.
  4. Soundstage is real – as real as anything else you hear in a recording.
  5. The world never needed anything more than two-channel stereo. Surround sound is a gimmick that distracts from cinema.
  6. IEMs are trash. The only thing you should ever stick in your canal are earplugs.
  7. If you’re using more than four parametric EQ settings (two peaks and two shelves), you should be listening to something else.
  8. Comparing frequency response curves is the best way to survive a conference call.
  9. I am only interested in Youtube vids with amusing thumbnails.
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44

Obviously, you aren’t on the knife forums. Micarta scales with texture for your CIVIVI Elementum 2….

Tell that to the LGMs.

Modernist. Hi-Fi is mono. All anyone ever needs. And we used to grow up with 5 or 6 transistor Japanese radios glued to one ear. Nobody thought that was weird. Try a white plastic Silvertone for the beach.

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45

Lots to unpack here! Thanks for all of the spice :smiley:

I would say #1 and #2 are uncontroversially true, though I’d maybe be a little more moderate in how I frame #2. HRTFs vary enough to matter since they likely play some part in preference, but I think the degree to which it is stated to matter for over-ear headphones is overstated considerably.

#3 is indeed a spicy take. For those who need to wear headphones for a large portion of their day (usually for work) I think it makes sense to prioritize well-fitting and comfortable designs. I still think there’s merit to optimizing for comfort for people who just like to wear headphones for a long time, or don’t—but still find many headphones instantly uncomfortable (I am somewhere between the latter two).

#4 is again fairly uncontroversial, I don’t think anyone would disagree that music varies in its spatial presentation across songs, genres, etc.

#5 is a question of how close to reality you want your program material to sound. Personally I do think surround sound for speakers is usually underwhelming, but I find binaural audio in headphones pretty fascinating because its usually more immersive (IME, at least).

#6 I’d love to hear more of why you think they’re trash. I don’t think they sound very good and generally the comfort is so poor I don’t ever really want to use them, but that’s me; I wanna hear from you!

#7 is a hard disagree from me, simply because comfort matters. Sure I could get an HD 650 close to my ideal sound in 4 filters, but the comfort sucks for me within 5 minutes of wear.

#8 and #9 are quite spicy LOL no comment there :joy:

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46

As someone who finds HD 600 a bit too shouty at 3.5 kHz, I agree that it can definitely be too intense for some. I’m not sure I’d attribute hearing loss as a primary or even secondary factor in why it’s so well-received though.

iirc there was a study that showed that, contrary to what Fletcher Munson would have you think, people who listen louder also want more bass. I’d have to find it though.

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47

OOOH, spicy! Hard disagree unless you’re a soundstage zealot, but I admire your pluck!

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48

LOL, thanks for all these replies. I was definitely serving it up with extra spice up there (on most of them, at least; the conference call thing is objectively true), kind of like the sun-dried tomato salsa I got the other day which had just a hint of great taste underneath an absurdly eye-watering amount of capsacin or whatever the heck they added too much of.

On no. 6 we’re exactly aligned; I’d just add that IEMs in my experience are acutely uncomfortable, I can hardly ever get and maintain a good seal, they usually make my tinnitus worse (I need more air in between the source and my eardrum), and they may be more harmful with louder music. With the exception of the latter, which I’m not in any position to prove, it’s entirely subjective.

49

I kind of am, actually. :grin:

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50

ROFL. As someone who has allegedly done this during a conference call or two, this made me burst out loud laughing.

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51

Spicy take: Most people don’t index hard on perfect midrange and treble because they are listening to studio music with the majority of sounds being either artificial or an instrument they have never heard live and unplugged. So how would they know that the midrange and treble are correct?

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52

That’s why this is a hot take :sweat_smile:

I think you misunderstand me. I’m not saying the HD 6X0 is bad. Rather, I think it’s very good, and one of the best headphones we have for midrange. My gripe is around the fact that some folks put the HD 6X0 on such a pedestal, and consistently tell others the same, that nothing will ever touch it, even if something truly better does come out. As you said, it gets the midrange reasonably right. But reasonably right isn’t the same as “all other mids are bad” level of fanaticism. And ironically, most people probably aren’t even hearing the “perfect” HD 6X0 midrange that seems to be romanticized because of pad wear and variation. They’re hearing the reasonably right version.

For example, take the recent HD 505 or 550. Both of these headphones have midranges that are also reasonably right. But few people are out there banging the drum for these headphones. If there’s lots of people truly hungry for the HD 6X0 to be dethroned, the HD 505/550 would’ve been their answer. Yet other than the initial reviewer wave, I’ve seen quite little talk of them. And when you put them up against the HD 6X0, you’re likely to find someone say the HD 6X0 has better mids in some way. Or at least, lean towards the HD 6X0. But is that because the HD 6X0 is truly better? Or because years and years of people repeating that the HD 6X0 is the best that there’s an unconscious bias that’s been planted? To somewhat echo what Taron is saying - if the HD 505/550 existed 20 years ago and the HD 6X0 came out today, would it overtake the HD 505/550 and receive the same cult following?

The concepts behind the novelty explanation make sense, but I don’t think novelty is the right word. If anything, the sound of the HD 6X0 is novel to someone new to the hobby. For those outside the hobby, you would pretty much never have been exposed to the HD 6X0’s type of sound. Like, there is no scenario in which you would naturally have heard the HD 6X0’s midrange focused, closed-in sound without actually have ventured into the hobby before. The musical experiences people not into headphones/IEMs would have experienced would be either live concerts, playing instruments, or some mass consumer headphones like the ATH-M50x/Airpods Max/APP2. None of these are remotely close to how the HD 6X0 renders sound, with maybe the exception of the APP2. But even then, that’s a TWS IEM with lots of DSP and other effects going on which is also very different.

Saying novelty is also too dismissive of people who have been in the hobby for a long time, who’ve owned or tried all sorts of headphones or IEMs from Sennheiser to HiFiMan to Audeze, and MoonDrop to Campfire to 64 Audio, and yet still don’t love the HD 6X0 with that level of conviction. Novelty implies that once someone gets past the “beginner” stage and becomes an “experienced” audiophile, that everyone will return to the HD 6X0 and use that as their sole headphone. Which does happen, but not universally.

Lastly, the HD 6X0 is arguably colored in all other aspects outside of its midrange. It has little subbass extension, and its treble, which not as bad as say HiFiMan, is still not quite right either. And regardless of whether soundstage and imaging are actually real in headphones, the perception of being music being closed-in is a coloration unto itself. This isn’t to single out the HD 6X0 for how “intimate” it feels, but rather to point that all headphones/IEMs are innately colored at varying degrees because they simply aren’t like speakers.

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53

Didn’t Fletcher Munson catch for the Yankees?

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54

I think you may be confusing him with Darrin Fletcher of the Dodgers. Or possibly his dad, Tom Fletcher of the Tigers.

He definitely didn’t play with the Yanks though, unless it was off season.

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55

Yes. When I referred to midrange, I meant primarily the ear gain region. And it sounds like you may still have most of your upper midrange hearing still intact, which is probably a good thing.

I am not up on all the very latest research on this, but I believe equal loudness is still an area of ongoing study.

Boosting the bass and treble (or reducing the mids) has been a common technique in stereo gear for listening at lower volumes for a long time though. This is what the Loudness control on older stereos was for. And it comes from ideas on equal loudness, like Fletcher-Munson…

That doesn’t mean you have to believe or accept it though. I’m just throwin a few ideas out there for why some might prefer more or less mids in their headphones which seem fairly obvious and logical to me. The equal loudness concept, as it has been broadly known and applied, seems to work pretty well for me though, fwtw.

There are certainly other potential explanations though for why people may prefer different sound signatures in their gear.

56

Spicy take

No one needs more than 50mw of power for iem’s, and running balanced for iem’s is pointless.

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57

Or…

Tell me you’ve never heard the Final Audio E5000, without telling me you’ve never heard the Final Audio E5000…

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58

I had a pair 5/6 years ago that I used with my iPod nano 6th Gen, it was my biking set-up as the nano clipped to my shorts/jersey/jacket etc. the nano worked fine with them.

Still got the nano but I lost the e5000, they were quite decent for the time but I preferred my Sony xba-n3’s which I still use.

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59

IEM’s are slowly but surely going to crush the headphone hobby because the manufacturing advantages continue to generate products that offer exponentially more value than headphones.

Almost every day IEM‘s get better and cheaper, and those economies of scale will continue to improve. Meanwhile, headphones are stagnant relative to that sharp improvement.

Add to that that they need less power and are thus cheaper to run and more convenient and it’s no contest.

The poster about who said they are trash probably used an IEM 10 years ago with a weird spiral tip. There are multiple $500 and under headphones that now come with their own set of super comfortable silicone tips in various sizes that destroy headphones at multiples of their price and it’s only going to get worse.

60

DAPs should only be allowed, by law, to have headphone outs at the bottom and charging ports on the side. Usbc only, obviously.

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