Tube Talk

It’s a mental trap of sorts that I know I fall into myself sometimes - assuming that there’s some kind of central repository where important information like this just lives. Except it doesn’t unless somebody carefully archives it. The internet age doesn’t make it any easier to comprehend either…

Back to tubes - I’ve been getting into transmitter triodes lately. GM70’s are a fascinating tube, and he even has schematics and a few working examples of the beastly 851 triode. Plate dissipation is apparently 150W… single ended!

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So now we have computer-aided design and robotics. Why is making a great tube still such an art?

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Mostly because there’s not enough money or interest in creating a robotic assembly for tubes. Outside of auto manufacturing, full automation is exceptionally expensive. New tools can help create tubes more efficiently, but human labor is often still less expensive than total automation.

It’s a bit like a vintage car. Sure, we can make things that go faster, have launch control, computerized torque vectoring, even cars that drive themselves. But for the enthusiast, something about direct throttle cables, simple hydraulic power steering and slimmer, suspensions that let them feel the road is more immediate and satisfying.

And while we could make a Jaguar E Type or a Doosenburg or a Stingray Corvette with automation… the money and will to do so doesn’t exist.

I don’t know what the economics of fully automating tube production would look like, but the process is extensive and complex. It’s not as simple as blowing some glass bottles and sticking wires and grids in it. Vacuum sealing, furnace baking, chemistry lab/fume hoods, not to mention stricter environmental and safety regulations that make tube production difficult in North America’s remaining industrial areas are all considerations. Then, winding grids, hooking up the delicate wire to pins, sealing and testing them, all while trying to retain structural and electrical integrity of the piece. Double the cost and complexity as the tube gets smaller and adds additional grids or complex spacing arrangements.

Computer aided design is helpful, as you can digitize the tube drawings and do 3D modelling to determine structural weak points and assess tolerances. This requires someone who understands how a tubes design effects the sound of the tube though, and though I’ve met several tube factory owners and some incredibly talented engineers who can answer parts of that question, I can’t think of a single one who can sit down, draw up a tube schematic and have some idea of how it will turn out. They may be out there, but as for determining why different tubes of the same type can sound so different? Materials science, build tolerance, coatings, metallurgy, manufacturing expertise (such as the tightness of vacuum seal or the precision of grid winds for example) will likely all effect the sound of a tube. As for exactly how they will effect the sound, that’s a dark art that is beyond my understanding. I’ve heard many compelling theories for different tubes and techniques, but I couldn’t say I know whether I’m hearing the type or gauge of wire used in a grid wind, or if a graphite coating really does effect the sound in X or Y way. It’s still an exceptionally special engineer/listener who can say when ‘technical factor A occurs’ then ‘Sonic characteristic B emerges.’

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Ive actually tried looking into these things online, and it is a nightmare. Even something simple like trying to figure out a production date code can be near impossible.

Yes, this is probably an even larger issue than we realize but almost all of audiophilia has an issue with this somewhere - outside of waste products from vinyl or CD manufacture, how much energy do streaming services use? Whats the efficiency of the Class A SET amp Im listening too right now being fed from a DAC I need to keep on at all times for best sound?

At least with physical media there is an enduring nature to them that can be passed on to others.

Ive enjoyed your posts!!

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Agreed. It’s not just about waste though, there are toxic chemicals and industrial slag byproducts from making tubes that just don’t jive well with modern EPA regulations. It’s possible to dispose of them appropriately, but it does cost money, which further makes the aforementioned economics difficult. I know more than a few revered old tube brands that simply dumped toxic dust and chemlab byproducts into potable water sources…

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I repeatedly hear of how some old-time amps and mikes are simply impossible to produce any more, due to the lack of suitable tubes. Neumann V76 amplifier, for instance, or the “five great” microphones from Telefunken u47 and up. Do you think there’s any hope of recapturing their magic?

Please allow me to introduce the Fosgate Signature headphone amp as an example of a push-pull design. The short production run of about 5 years or so coupled with the retail price is probably why it is not well known.

Great forum! I’m an Electrical Engineer of a certain age, such that when I learned about transistor amplifiers, a mentor said, “So you’ve already studied tubes.” When I said “no” he was gravely concerned about the modern education system, because (in his words) “You cannot possibly understand transistors unless you know about tubes.” I said “Yes, in fact you can, and I am the proof.” My audiophile tendencies drove me to learn more about tubes, transformers, audio amplifier topologies in general, and I’m the bearer of what some may interpret as bad news: Tubes, Transformers, Capacitors all introduce some fairly serious flaws compared to the “straight wire with gain” ideal amplifier. However, human hearing and perception of sound are also flawed, and the flaws advance with age. The good news is that all these flaws can be complementary, and a wonderful hobby is born. We make better progress when we admit that we are seeking to optimize complementary flaws for our ears, and for our brain, and that my optimization may not be your optimization. Then we become free to drop the concepts of “better tube, better transformer, better capacitor”. We can then recognize that cost and “better” are effectively unrelated, because “better” is a false distinction in the first place. “Different” is the proper discussion framework, not “better”. We are then freed from chasing someone else’s definition of “better” and the associated confusion and disappointment. If the conversation about a particular tube reveals “slight emphasis of frequencies in the range X to Y” or “lower noise in the high frequency range” and avoids the claim of “better”, NOW we have a useful language for identifying products whose flaws may be complementary to our flaws, enabling us to make progress toward “better” personal enjoyment of the music. This is the only use of “better” that should have any weight in this discussion. Best wishes, and Roll On!

Disclaimer: I’ve chosen to follow the “straight wire with gain” approach. My current system starts from Qobuz hi-res files that feed into the Schiit Bifrost 2, then to the Schiit Jotunheim R, to the RAAL / Requisite SR1a ribbon headphones, then into my outer ear, middle ear, inner ear, and brain. Sadly, not a tube in sight, and nothing meaningful to “roll”, BUT, I’m discovering and enjoying new music, enjoying old familiar music with a new appreciation (“Oh, that’s what that sound was!”), and in general getting more payback from the hobby than ever before. I AM considering adding a tube buffer stage (What?!?! Why?), to deliberately add phase noise and euphonic harmonic distortion to the signal, to stimulate more inner ear cilia adjacent to the dwindling cilia located at the “correct” frequencies, in hopes of creating a personal sound experience that is…better.

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When I’m in the market for a tube amp. One of the most important things I look at first, especially with a company that I’m not familiar with is what tubes does that amp use. For example the Darkvoice 336i (great starter tube amp) It uses a 6sn7 for the signal tube and the 6as7 for the power. The 6sn7 is one of the best requarded signal tube because it is easy to find a great sounding tube. Very easy to like. RCA, Sylvania, tungsol , GEC, Ken Rad, Mullard and a lot of others make great tubes.
The 6AS7, 6080, 6080w, 5998A, A1834, 421A will work. To me the GEC A1834 is the holy grail. Very warm and can get syrupy, just oozing lush female voices. Then you got the Bendix 6080W. This tube will rock, a bit better than the Tunsol 5998A to me.
This is where I start…

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Thats funny that you say that about 6SN7. I can most definitely relate to your value assessment of the 6sn7. Because when I first listened to my Darkvoice my mind was blown at how surprisingly good the stock Chinese 6SN7 tubes sounded. The many years I had spent with Little Dot amplifiers had built up a bad taste in my ears with Chinese tubes. I assumed that all cheap Chinese amps came with cheap bad sounding tubes. Being cheap stock Chinese tubes, the 6SN7 of the Darkvoice finally put to rest my prior over generalization and assumption that all Chinese tubes were garbage. Now, I am not saying that I ever use the stock Chinese 6SN7 tubes, because I don’t. But, if one were to stay with the stock Chinese tubes, the sound would still be very enjoyable. Especially at the price.

Very interesting post, Calvin (SPaceman Spiff)! :slight_smile: I have myself added an iTube2 tube preamp just recently, and find I prefer it with some music but not others. Blues sounds even better, but a certain female vocal loses the “edge” that makes me almost want to send her a fan mail and propose. It has to do with control of the higher frequencies, and for her voice, they lose just a tad too much for me to go ecstatic. The enjoyment of the blues, though, seem to stem from something else, probably low-order harmonics. So my guess is that my ideal would be a wide FR tube with some harmonic distortion.

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There is a service called “Cameo” where you can pay many celebs and singers to send you a special (albeit brief) personal greeting.

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If this could be understood by many, it would make the whole hobby far more interesting and respectful.

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The Cayin Tube headphone amp is the best buy in vacuum tube headphone amps.
It’s built like a tank and easily drives my Sennheiser HD 800s headphones.

Retails previously for $ 599 but they seemed to recently upped it to $ 799

It sounds amazing, with lots of power to drive the power-hungry HD800’s

I have not found anything to upgrade from here unless you spend big money.

The Manley, Top WOO, Ayon are big bucks

HA-1A MK2

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What else have you compared it to, especially in that price bracket?

Impedance is 300 but sensitivity is 102 - never really heard them referred to before as power hungry?? I have headphones with the same impedance but less sensitive and I would not call them power hungry at all. Maybe Im wrong.

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Many, such as myself, have put a Schiit Freya Plus in front of the Jotunheim R which gives both the “straight wire, no gain” path as well as the tube buffer stage for all the tube goodness.

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Thanks Spiff! Love the input and totally agree. I try to be as specific as possible when discussing sound and engineering details. Having words to describe what we’re hearing and understanding how to better achieve our sonic goals is a rising tide that lifts all ships.

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How would you describe the solid state and tube buffer sounds?

I recently added the MHA-200 to my headphone amplifier collection. This is my second tube amp I have owned and now deep in the woods of tube rolling. I absolutely love the MHA-200 especially after replacing the 12AT7 tubes with Mullard. Out of the box it is way better sound than my Burson 3XL Solo or my vioelectric v550p. But it got my itching to see if I can take the sound yet a bit further. Are there any suggestions from those who own the MHA-200 who would like share their tips and setup of tube rolling these little amps?

For full disclosure, I am using Mullard NOS 12AT7 tubes and RCA black top NOS for the 12BH7. The sound with these tubes is a bit less ‘muffled’/dark (dare say brighter) while still exhibiting that easy listening, warmth and overall rounded character.

I don’t own a MHA200, but from my experience with 12AT7s, for a more incisive sound with extended range on both ends, the Telefunken ECC81 and the Siemens ECC801s did the job for me. Heard good reviews about the Brimar CV451 and the Raytheon 7728s as well.

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