Do DACs/Amps matter?

I haven’t addressed your underlying questions because, as @junki alludes, these are routine epistemology and philosophy of science topics. These concepts are well, well, well trod and have been beaten to death for decades and centuries.

Search for: “God’s-eye view.” “Role of the observer.” " Schrödinger’s cat." “If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear, does it make a sound?” “Mental models.” “Cognitive construction of reality.” Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

These are bread-and-butter topics in college philosophy and psychology of perception classes. There are hundreds of books that sketch the range of interpretations for “knowledge” and “facts” and “ways of knowing.” In practice, most people approach the world through “naive realism.”

That’s all I have to say.

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It’s an interesting discussion and I do feel that it’s getting addressed in a more balanced way than other places.

I have read Head-Fi, ASR and even some Archimago.

I have some take aways.

First, measurements are taken using a sine wave or a test tone, it’s not music, it’s a flat, 2 dimensional tone.

Stereo music isn’t flat. It’s two 3 dimensional signals interacting with each other. This, along with our brain’s ability to interpret, is what gives us imaging.

That tone also has very tightly controlled time alignment. It’s a pure wave that is generated. Music isn’t that. It’s complex and, when you listen to DAC designers like Mike Moffat and Rob Watts, they are very concerned with getting the time and frequency domain right in their products. Something that I’m not sure would be measurable on SINAD, THD and FR.

I’m not saying that those measurements are worthless, just that they don’t have a complete picture. It’s why a headphone that misses the Harmon curve can be pleasurable to listen to.

My second thought is that we are all different. My wife has significant hearing loss in one ear. She will never hear true stereo imaging like I do. This upsets me. Differences in our physical ears and nervous system, will change how each person hears something.

When you talk to 2 channel audiophiles using speakers, everything is dependant on the room and the interaction with the room and the speaker. I feel that with headphones the shape of your actual head starts to play a part.

Amps to me, clearly make a difference. Especially, their interaction with the driver. It needs to be able to handle the impedance swings of the transducer and control it, especially when the technology differs, such as with a planar magnetic or dynamic driver. Some drivers need more current, some more voltage

DAC’s make smaller differences, again, I think the time domain stuff might make a difference. What I have observed is that to me, multi bit is more important on my 2 channel setup as it gives greater depth to the soundstage, whereas delta sigma gives more width, that is actually more useful on headphones. Not that they can’t sound good on both, just a difference I have observed.

Finally, music is art. Concert pianists all play the same notes in roughly the same timing. But there is still interpretation within that, that makes one better than the other.

If Leonardo Da Vinca also had a DSLR camera and took a photo when he painted the Mona Lisa, which would we prefer if he hung them side by side? Would the photo enhance or diminish our appreciation of it? Do we appreciate the painting because generations of art critics have told us it is a masterpiece? That last one is a bit philosophical for a Monday morning, my apologies!

Synergy is often thrown around and I kind of agree, but I often wonder if we truly understand how amps and transducers really interact with each other. Maybe the designers do.

I don’t think we’ve found the truth yet.

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I feel they definitely matter. I didn’t feel dacs made much of a difference until I got to the bifrost 2 level. I remember that be a significant jump for me. And I was thinking, man this is crazy to pay $700 for a dac… I hope I hear a difference… And I did :grin:. When I had my original Jotunheim 1 with the dac chip and tried a smsl dac with it, it wasnt really noticeable. But eventually I moved to the RNHP and then added the bifrost 2, as I mentioned above. I felt I started to really understand what was going on. I started to notice the blacker backgrounds, depth, separation, etc. And after I made the jump to the tt2, I felt I had even more of an understanding of how dacs are working within my chain. Unfortunately, I feel they’re just more noticeable as you climb the latter.

And with amps it’s definitely noticeable. Run a HD800 off a brighter ss amp like a thx 789. Then run it off a tube amp. Even an affordable tube amp like a bhc or dark voice. You’ll notice a difference. If you can’t then just enjoy something really simple off an affordable ss amp and be happy. Even airpod pros are solid for what they are.

The wrong amp pairing with a headphone can make them sound too bright, too warm, no bass punch, etc. So, yes it matters. To think otherwise is silly to me. If you can’t tell a difference or don’t want to go down the upgrade path, enjoy what you have, or just enjoy something like Porta pros off a simple dongle (nothing wrong with these either, I have a pair :grin:).

So imo they both matter. And synergy matters. Just because it’s a good amp or dac doesn’t mean its going to be good in your chain if you’re not pairing it properly. Same with the headphones. The wrong chain with the wrong headphone won’t sound like it should… We could even get into cables and power as well but that may burn this thread down :laughing:

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I guess we should just let our resident expert explain to us if there are any differences.

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I would call “steady state”. Those tones are so fast that they reach a steady state very quickly, and this is what gets measured.

Agreed. Looks like the community is still waiting for a test that captures these transients, whether to complement or even debunk the SINAD paranoia.

I look forward to stopping reading this kind of statement: for the price of this DAC one can purchase ‘n’ Topping E30s. :weary:

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Just wanted to jump into this thread and give a big thank you to our community. These types of discussions can often get heated very quickly and I appreciate the amount of civil discourse that has been had in this thread so far. You guys rock!

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Hmm, yeah I remember that video. What ever happened to doing “more of this kind of stuff” @Resolve?

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More will come hopefully haha.

Edit - just to clarify, the reason it hasn’t happened yet is that we’re still in the process of building the tools to do it right, and there are also things that get in the way from a priority standpoint. But it’s in the works.

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I never really understood this conversation. I mean, I get the whole NWAvGuy thing that for $100 you can get an amp or a DAC that performs well. Even the $8 Apple dongle is pretty great, as long as you don’t have hard-to-drive 'phones. But there’s no question that higher quality amps and DACs can improve sound quality, it’s obvious to anyone who’s listened to them. I A/B’d my Atom Amp against my RebelAmp, for example, and the difference wasn’t even close, and that’s not even the high end of the market. The Atom amp sounded great. The RebelAmp sounded better. Likewise I have a RU6 dongle and it sounds better than the Apple dongle or my Qudelix, especially on gear it pairs well with. And I know people get twisted into a knots about what’s more “accurate”, but for the life of me I can’t understand why someone who isn’t mixing music would prefer an “accurate” sound to a “pleasing” one.

If you just don’t want to get into all that because your headphones already sound good on an Apple dongle, that’s wonderful! I’d probably like tube amps but don’t really want to put the time, energy, and money into figuring out different amps and tubes and replacing tubes and so on, so I just leave it alone because my music already sounds good. Same goes for vinyl, only moreso. I also don’t want to spend $10,000 on source gear, so I reached a place where I’m happy and basically stopped. Only go as far as you want, it’s a hobby, it’s supposed to be fun not stressful.

But absolutes about source gear not mattering or what other people should and shouldn’t prefer are absurd.

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I’ve gotta say… I kind of hate that video because it creates the semblance of S-C-I-E-N-C-E, but at the end the takeaway is, hilariously, that USB cables make a difference. Those who understand the very basics about digital information, know that digital data either come in, or they don’t. They’re either perfect (readable) or they’re broken (not readable). With poor and long cables that generate a lot of interference and/or ground loops, it might mean that a really crappy DAC may not be able to tell what is a 1 and what is a 0 or whose operation may be impacted by the interference above the audible threshold, but they’re using two Chord’s here with cables that seem to be more than functional, so those phenomena are highly unlikely.

Much more likely interpretation is unit variation between the two Chord’s or somewhere else downstream the USB cables that is part of the analog chain, but suggesting the USB cables as the factor is just… I guess to put it politely, it suggests how difficult it is to both set up a proper test and to properly interpret results.

But many non-technical audiophiles will watch that and, like the host of the video, conclude, “USB cables make a difference.” And I guess the goal of selling expensive cables is accomplished.

I guess this is where I stop posting.

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I really like what Passion For Sound is trying to do here and in his other videos. I’ve even participated in one of his online listening tests. But I gotta say, this particular test is fundamentally flawed. You don’t tell the participants that there is a difference in the configuration and then ask them if they hear it. You’ve already primed them to perceive a difference.

It’s interesting that while a significant majority hear a difference, the preference is split much closer to 50/50.

Here’s another USB cable video where he attempts to measure the difference. I found it much more convincing. I mean, I’m still not convinced but…

I hope you mean you decided to stop posting just to this thread and not this entire forum.

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That’s correct, haha. :slight_smile:

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Yeah I saw this one. I like that they’re doing it, but the problem is that they used two different headphones - two separate chains entirely - and didn’t verify FR or level externally. That means the variables aren’t constant, as there could be unit variation going on.

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Please don’t do that - I think your input has been fantastic! There are a lot of people here that don’t believe USB cables make a difference unless the new one fixes a flaw or one that’s too long of a run (same goes for interconnects), so you’re in good company.

Agreed.

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Yes, please stop posting. Take your common sense and polite discussion elsewhere, this is not the place for an educated conversation!

(I hope that the above is clear enough to not need a “JK” disclaimer :wink:).

I have to agree with Taron, it’s great that people can express points of view and not need to “prove” anything or take offense if someone disagrees.

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I haven’t seen the Passion For Sound video, so can’t comment on that. I don’t think you’re trying to make the case that USB cables pass digital information (1’s and 0’s), so I’m not trying to debate you, but just in case people misinterpret what you said, here are some facts.

USB cables don’t pass 1’s and 0’s, they pass voltage signals which are interpreted as 1’s and 0’s. Voltage below a certain level is interpreted as a 0 and voltage above a certain level is interpreted as a 1. Anything that interferes with the voltage signal can cause the data to be misinterpreted by the DAC.

Also, a lot of people are under the misapprehension that using USB for music uses the same error correction as files sent to a hard drive or printer. When sending a document to print, there’s a code that tells the printer how big the packet was. The printer can check that code against the file received, and can ask the PC to resend the file until it confirms that the file is completely correct. Music signals do not benefit from this resend function and therefore DAC error correction systems cannot replace missing or corrupted data.

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Yeah, we’ve been around this block before. Longer USB cables (>2 meters) tend to have dropouts and generate data errors. I know this after buying multiple USB extenders and having nothing but problems with external hard drives and CD/DVD drives. I threw all of them away or returned them.

I’ve found that most USB cables (even $5 or bundled) are extremely reliable for short runs, but longer ones become progressively less reliable. My CD rips using Exact Audio Copy are verified for accuracy against central databases, and thereby confirmed that (only) my longer cables caused problems.

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Just as some cheap interconnects come with poor quality fragile construction and connectors, the same can be said of all of my cheap USB cables. My Schiit Bifrost 2 was stuttering with the sound and I was scared that my DAC was malfunctioning. It ended up being a bad USB cable. I think all of my USB cables are cheap molded at the factory type connectors. I would think that a higher end USB cable might justify an increase in price for increased durability/superior termination. But like most of you, I just threw the old one in the trash and replaced it with a brand new $3 USB cable.

I could also understand that someone $pending lots of money and effort on shielding electronic interference and conditioners in an ultra $ix figure $ystem would likely want to spend additional funds on keeping any computer generated interference from the rest of their system by installing USB cables that provide additional shielding.

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