Do DACs/Amps matter?

@PaisleyUnderground is absolutely right. USBs have multiple wires that each switch between different voltage levels to transfer data. In modern USBs, a voltage across the wire at 360 mV and higher is considered a logical 1, and a voltage at or below 10 mV is considered a logical 0. Voltage levels that are in between that order-of-magnitude gap are ignored. That gap is an order-of-magnitude in size to disambiguate between 1’s and 0’s.

As a cable gets longer, its shield impedance and overall material resistivity increases, which increases the voltage drop from one end to the other. At the same time, the cable becomes more susceptible to ground loops and interference. Dropping voltage and rising noise will eventually result in errors.

This phenomenon happens to both analog cables (i.e. RCA) and digital cables, because cables are cables. But due to the nature of how a digital receiver translates voltage signals into information—whereas for an analog receiver, the voltage level is the information—this parasitic loss becomes a problem much, much sooner for analog applications than digital ones.

Despite that, for common desktop use cases, and the cable lengths they require, this parasitic loss typically isn’t a problem, at least for undamaged cables that are constructed with real conductive material.

(I’m sorry for posting an Amir video. I’m not endorsing or not endorsing the person, as I don’t know him, and I certainly am not commenting on the ASR community, but the content in the video is good.)

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That drives me nuts wondering what goes on behind the scene with reviewer’s systems. I know that iiWi Reviews likes to use coaxial interconnects. In my experience with coaxial interconnects, some of the coaxial type utilize a solid copper conductor in the middle as the positive conductor and in worst case scenarios use the tin foil/braided shield as the negative conductor. The result has sometimes produced dark dull sonic characteristics resulting from the extreme change in resistance of the interconnect in which the gear was not designed to work well with.

After reading this thread, and this one, and all the comments about fatigue, I’m convinced that listening chairs matter more than usb cables.

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So are you a 50/50 transducer/chair kind of guy?

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You’re on to something! Headphones.com should make a listening chair with a built in tube amplifier for soothing sound AND heat therapy. Relax your muscles while you sooth your ears with the reclinifier. If only I wasn’t so damn lazy, I’d build one… or not…

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chair with a built in tube amplifier

Uh, so this is the warmth folks talk about. Nice.

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Genius. There is a serious hole in the market for an audio-grade chair that really brings out the plankton in the music.

What I’m saying is I want to feed like a whale when I’m listening.

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For those of you who have already seen this, apologies, but since we have taken a dive into USB cables (it made me laugh) :laughing::

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:rofl:

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In fact, the first place I saw that was here:
https://passion-for-sound.myspreadshop.com/usb+cable+definition-A5fb462280903d417173b11bc
(Passion For Sound’s store :sunglasses: )

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Wanted to chime in a bit in regards to the digital connection discussion. Apologies in advance for the lack of formatting, will get this tidied up a bit later!

The first thing is that there are three key aspects to consider when it comes to a digital audio connection.

  • Noise
  • Data Integrity
  • Jitter

Noise:
The first thing to consider is simply how noisy your source is, and what effect this may have on the receiving device. Using a higher quality source like an SMS200 Ultra will give you a much lower noise level on the output than a raspberry pi, and a raspberry pi will give you way less noise than a beefy gaming PC or something.
But how much this affects your DAC will depend on the level of noise and your DAC. Some DACs are incredibly susceptible to source noise, and some have full galvanic isolation on data and power and are effectively immune to even incredibly bad sources.
However you don’t need to spend tons of money. In fact you can get devices like the Intona 7055-C which provide full galvanic isolation and an incredibly low noise output for about $300.
There are of course also options like using an optical connection which inherently will not pass any noise as there is no electrical connection, it’s just light.
Grounding is also an important consideration, and some DACs WILL be affected by an ungrounded or galvanically isolated source (stuff like the ADI-2 for example is not grounded by the PSU and relies on USB ground, so can encounter significant issues when used behind a galvanic isolator), but many/most will not.

Data Integrity:
The bare minimum for a digital audio connection to be considered ‘good’ is that the data itself gets to the other end without being altered or misread. And in the vast majority of cases, this is not a problem.
Unless you are using extremely long USB connections, it’s almost certain that you’re not going to have any data integrity issues.
But even if you do, it’ll be obvious, and will usually manifest as either clicks/pops or even a static/robotic effect.
There won’t be any sort of typical audiophile descriptions like improved resolution, blackground etc. It will either work or it will be obviously problematic. So don’t fuss about this one unless you have very clear issues.

Jitter:
This is the big one, and the one that many streamers, DDCs etc will seek to improve.
The digital input method you use with your DAC and the source feeding it, can and will have a measurable impact on the performance of the DAC.
Whether it’s enough to be audible is situational, but the fact remains that it IS a genuine factor to consider.
BUT…only with sources other than USB.

With sources using I2S, AES, SPDIF (and some proprietary connections), the audio data is sent in a constant stream, with a clock signal either sent alongside it in the case of I2S, or embedded in the stream in the case of AES/SPDIF.
The DAC must convert the incoming samples/data with the timing instructed by the clock signal. And therefore, the level of jitter on the incoming clock signal has a direct impact on the timing accuracy of the DAC itself.
There are solutions such as a PLL to help attenuate jitter from an incoming signal, and these operate to varying degrees of effectiveness, but the quality of the incoming clock signal still has a measurable effect, just less so than if operating without a PLL.

This behaviour means that if you were to purchase a high performance DDC with incredibly low jitter, such as an Audio GD DI20HE or Singxer SU-6, you could conceivably gain a performance benefit if the clock signal provided by the DDC is better than the one provided by your DAC’s internal clocks. Though conversely if you picked a bad DDC, you might end up with a perfomance penalty.

But, given as the conversation above was in relation to USB, it’s important to note that Jitter from the source does not affect USB.
USB audio does not operate in the same manner as I2S/AES/SPDIF. It is NOT sent in a constant stream and a clock signal is not provided to the DAC.
With UAC2.0 audio (the standard for modern DACs), audio is sent in chunks. A chunk of audio is sent to the DAC, and this is then put into a buffer.
The DAC then takes samples from this buffer and converts them, using it’s OWN clock to determine when to do so.
More chunks will be provided to the DAC as needed to ensure that the buffer does not end up either empty (a buffer underrun) or full (a buffer overrun). The timing precision of this does not matter at all, so long as the next sample is ready by the time the DAC needs it.

So why do a lot of devices advertise ‘USB Reclocking’?
Well, to be frank, because people will buy them. Reclocking SPDIF/AES/I2S is genuine, as you are replacing the clock signal with a (hopefully) better one.
But a USB reclocker is actually just a repeater or transparent hub. And anything from a USB hub, to an innuous phoenix, to an intona 7055-C is technically a ‘reclocker’.
This CAN have the benefit of providing better signal integrity for longer distances, and that’s the main reason you’d want a USB repeater anyway. But it will not improve jitter, because as mentioned above, there is no mclk or word clock signal with USB audio and the DAC relies entirely on it’s own clocks for timing accuracy.

USB reclocking is nothing more than retransmission of the USB signal, acting as a middleman between the host device and DAC. The audio is still sent in chunks at semi-random intervals and as long as the audio is handed to the DAC before the buffer runs empty performance will be unchanged.

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One of the things I like most about this forum in the general is the sharing by members of all types of audio engineering experience; that plus coupled with related experience from other members with a diverse range of professional expertise and academic knowledge.

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This is an awesome, succinct explanation that I wish I had earlier in my audiophile journey. While I’m (finally) familiar with most of this content now, it neatly sums up what otherwise took me months of reading, watching (including your fantastic YouTube channel, @GoldenSound), re-reading, digesting, and re-digesting before finally grasping it.

Keep up this awesome work, and post these types of explainers far and wide. It will help so many people. :slight_smile:

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I C what you did there.

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Yeah it’s kinda what got me interested in it in the first place. There’s not much concise info available on the matter.

I guess the TLDR for those who just want to know whether it’s snakeoil or not is:

  • I2S, AES and SPDIF sources do make a demonstrable difference to the performance of your DAC, and it can be worthwhile to get a good DDC. The data is the same and indeed ‘bits are bits’. But the timing accuracy is influenced by the source due to the nature of how these protocols work.

  • With USB jitter is entirely dependent on your DAC, not the source, and the only thing you need to worry about is noise. Grab a filter like an iPurifier if needing something affordable or a full galvanic isolator like an intona 7055-C or very low noise source like an SMS200 Ultra if you want to guarantee your DAC is not being negatively influenced by noise from the source.

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This is the route I took. On your recommendation, I tried a Singxer SU-6 (connected directly to my Roon core) and compared it to an ifi Zen Stream (streaming over the network, but originating from my Roon core), and preferred the sound out of the Singxer SU-6. Both were compared over digital coax (I found the Zen Stream USB to be very noisy, but its digital coax is excellent). From my listening I found that the Zen Stream wins on noise/blackness of background, but only by the teeniest tiniest hair. However, the Singxer’s sound was crisper and less “soft” than the Zen Stream (jitter performance, maybe?) - and that was the tradeoff I preferred. I know both performed extremely well in your measurements, @GoldenSound, so I found it really interesting to do a more subjective test. I strongly prefer both options to running a USB straight out of my Roon Core, which I will take to mean that the galvanic isolation on my M-Scaler (feeding DAVE) is not perfect, and that the Singxer has a better clock.

To back up your explanation, I generally found that different digital sources / isolators I tried varied on crispness of sounds (particularly transients), which I can only assume reflects jitter performance, and blackness of background / digital glare on sounds, which would point to the noise isolation. I rarely had issues with data integrity except when streaming high-res files (176kHz+) from a Bluesound Node, where I would get an occasional dropout.

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Great examples, but I think the problem is not merely ego/posturing, though that certainly is a contributing factor. I think, more fundamentally, people legitimately disagree on what all of these things are and what they are for.

Consider watches. If they are only devices for keeping time, then the giant-killers are right and Timex clobbers Rolex. But if it’s a piece of jewelry then Rolex clobbers Timex (if they can even rightly be compared).

We don’t all agree on what an audio system even is, so there’s no way to reach a consensus on value judgments.

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To add to that, one side thinks they’re right based on measurements and won’t be convinced otherwise; the other side also thinks they’re right based on what they hear and won’t be convinced otherwise. So, where do you go from there? In my opinion, at this stage, it’s pointless to make it your goal to convince the other side you’re correct, no matter which side of the coin you’re on. If you have the opportunity to educate someone (I said educate, NOT publicly humiliate) then go for it, otherwise enjoy what you have. Life is too short!

Speaking of watches, I’m mostly an automatic, hackable guy, but I just ordered the black on black Casio Dive watch for my casual “beater” watch. For the sale price of $40 on Amazon, why the heck not (somewhere the Rolex and Omega fans are rolling their eyes at me, but I don’t care)??!!

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That is the point though - agreeing that Rolex is a Jewelry, not a better watch. Problem happens when people in this hobby sometimes call Rolex a better time keeping device than timex or fitbit/garmin/casio.

I have mechanical watches, and I gift them to my wife as well, as a jewelry, I know damn well the Casio my brother has been wearing for 20 years is a better time keeping tool.

Rolex and Omega watches are depreciating perhaps $40 per second right now. I suspect their prices track Bitcoin pretty well. You can laugh all the way to the bank, and pick up some nice stuff at good prices soon.

I added to several reasons to those that were listed above, and there are more, more, more. I fundamentally disagreed with many assumptions in this thread and thereby agree with you. :wink:

I concur about Timex/Rolex and have even used those brands as examples myself. We are reaching consensus regarding our lack of consensus.

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