Thanks for taking the time to respond, I’m glad you were able to find your answer and are happy with your setup.
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The point I am trying to make is that all the SS Amps I have tried so far sound the same to me and while A/B could not detect any additional detail, soundstage, extra bass etc etc
Only when using the Mogwai did I notice a very slight difference.I am just shocked how many reviews online of amps and dacs and how they make out like these things make a such a huge difference when the reality [sic] they don’t.
Thank you for sharing your experiences A/B-ing various solid-state amps vs the Mogwai. Do you have any ideas as to why your testing arrived at this conclusion?
I’m curious as I only own solid-state amplifiers and have considering exploring the tube amp path (though I am hesitant to begin exploring with an amp at the Mogwai’s price).
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I previously did similar testing on a little dot mk2(tube amp) and topping A90, smsl sp200, topping a50s and again could not detect any difference while a/b’ing.
I personally think unless your looking for a specific flavor that a good high end tube amp can give you I wouldn’t bother.
Example if you looking for more soundstage get a zmf pendant or the new one(not sure the name)
if your looking for thicker more dynamic bass a mogwai/forge if your looking for a good otl tube amp get a Elise or similar tube amp.
I don’t think any of the cheap tube amp will give you that something extra/different flavor you may be looking for and are better off getting a cheap/mid range SS amp that has enough power for you headphones and spend the rest of money on better/other headphones.
But that’s my opinion everyone is entitled to their own.
If you are local I would invite you to come listen to the Mogwai. The diference is very small but it is there. 
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I think it would be good to determine what your goal is when comparing gear. If you’re only looking for differences, then the biggest differences found will be from changing headphones. If you’re looking for improvements and you have a good transducer (headphone/speaker), then it would be good to look into DAC/Amps.
From experience, looking at amps in a similar price range will not have many differences or improvements over one another especially if you’re only comparing chinese SS amps. Their goal is all about lowering SINAD through feedback which means they will all have a very similar sound signature. Even something with a different topology like Asgard might sound different but still have similar resolution and detail because you’re compromising on components due to budget limitations.
DAC/Amps aren’t going to make a LCD5 sound like a 1266 TC. If it does, then there is something seriously broken with it. What you’re trying to determine when comparing is how the DAC presents the music like soundstage, timbre, imaging, detail, resolution, how black the background it, etc etc. When comparing amps, you’re looking for how well the amp controls the driver with decay, transients, macrodynamics, microdynamics, etc.
All of those differences should elevate a headphone, not give you a totally different one. For some reason the idea of synergy is lost in the headphone crowd but is very real and has been acknowledged in the speaker crowd for a very long time. The first step is to try out combinations that generally work together like dynamics with tubes just like in the speaker world, you would pair tubes with high efficiency speakers. Similarly, solid state amps provide the current that planars want just like bookshelf or low efficiency speakers normally want more watts to power through the crossovers to have adequate control over the bass woofer.
By trying to force one to go with the other, generally you get a lackluster experience or you have to overcompensate like I’ve seen some of my friends do by putting a Cayin 845 or 40w Push Pull tube amp to power Susvara or HE6sev2. On the other side, I also know a lot of people who feel very meh about dynamics when powering them with SS amps but understand the magic when listening to them with high end tube amplifiers.
Basically I’m saying there are many components to a system and just because you find individual components that review well, that doesn’t mean your system will actually sound great. There are definitely components that work well with others but might just be ok with something else.
All that being said, I don’t think it takes a ton of money to make a good sounding system. However, to conclude that all gear isn’t worth it or sounds the same based on a handful of tests seem a bit overexaggerated.
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Just for personal information as I was thinking of upgrading to a higher end SS amp. Ferrum Oor/hypnos But I am trying to find differences in how a dynamic and a planar represent sound from different gear. Specially ss amps.
But my testing got me wondering if I probably won’t hear any sort of difference.
At least until I can be proved otherwise by different/better testing.
I’m not trying to make this negative.
Maybe there is a big difference but I personally this isn’t my finding any so far.
Only from the Mogwai can I tell there is a small difference.
I’m not trying to exaggerate anything. If there is a better way if testing that I can change someone let me know.
I feel like youtube reviewer’s are the ones exaggerating this sort of stuff.
For example look at the latest review of the LCD-5 from Convince me audio.
Basically saying you need $30000 gear to make it sound it’s best.
I find this wrong 
What are everyone thoughts on that?
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I expect this to be my last response in this discussion, as you seem happy and happy with your methods. Audio is a hobby that should bring joy. Have fun on your own path.
That said, you’ve selected headphones and methods that support the finding of no differences, or no meaningful differences. If you wanna feel like a dragon slayer with your chosen gear, be it budget or SS, have at it. Per my own experience I often can’t hear differences with rapid AB switching. Many, many, many elite audio reviewers have indeed failed double blind AB tests too. We also haven’t gone into musical source track and genre differences, as some sound identical across most setups.
Still, I firmly stand by my long duration fatigue method as impossible to fake. I test setups with dozens of tracks across genres and different quality levels – sometimes only a few of the tracks are obviously different. But, when I’m in pain in the first few seconds it’s bad. When I listen for 3-4 hours pain free, it’s good. I demoed a store $10K+ speaker setup that generated instant pain with my problem tracks. That’s not good.
Yes, marketers greatly exaggerate the differences to sell more products, and to sell the most expensive products. I have heard and rejected a lot of super expensive stuff at local stores, and higher priced equipment tends to converge on similar qualities. Full range, punchy, clean, nuanced, and with tubes they have more harmonics. This subtly expands the stage, often thickens the timbre, adds resonance, and can make me feel to be “inside” the music. SS generally doesn’t do that for me. Even my trashy and cheap DarkVoice 336 OTL amp has a better 3D stage than my SS amps.
I’ve settled into a price/quality tier that sounds good with the stuff I listen to and that minimizes fatigue. This works for me. I then habituate and focus on the music.
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What a strange comment to make… Specially when I have said various times my methods of testing are basic and are open to help on a possible better way of testing and someone to prove me wrong.
Really? So it’s my headphones that are to blame for the cause of no difference of the way my ss amps sound???
By the way allso used on previous testing that I came to the same results were HD600, Beyer dt770 250ohm, arya, LCD X, LCD XC, FOCAL ELEGIA, DT1990, SUNDARA, LCD 2C, DCA NOIRE and a list of iems.
I agree this is a good method for “what you are looking for” and that is finding gear that doesn’t give you fatigue or pain like you describe. This is completely different from what I am trying to find in all of this.
But what I am trying to establish is if the amp sounds different and the best way to test this is by doing a quick A/B test from a flick of a switch so memory and placebo don’t take place if not this test would not work in my opinion.
Again I am not saying amps don’t make a difference but from "basic methods of testing "my findings so far are that most solid state amps sound the same. Or at least the ones I have tested.
Its not even marketers its also reviewers doing it and I don’t get it.
I feel like they are misleading the whole community with this stuff when they haven’t even A/B it and confirmed there subjective findings to be true.
I feel like they are doing us all wrong.
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Luckily if that’s truly what you believe, you have Resolve who takes the position that DAC/Amps make very little difference. So little that he’s ready to jump on a $8k amp 
All jokes aside, maybe I wasn’t being straight forward enough. Here are the things that I find could be issues with your “basic methods of testing”.
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DAC as a bottleneck. It’s very possible that your DAC isn’t providing the details that you want to give you any chance to hear any differences between your amps.
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A/B box as a bottleneck. I have no idea how your A/B box was built but if there is something there that is limiting your headphones in any way, that can cause you to not hear much of a difference.
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Your SS amps are all around the same tier. There’s not going to be much difference like I mentioned before. They all aim to do the same thing at the same price so you’re not going to get huge differences in sound. It’s like asking a hyundai elantra and kia forte to be super different. They get you from point A to point B at roughly the same time and in the same way. SS amps in general will sound a certain way anyway so it’s not surprising you don’t hear a huge diff between them.
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Your headphones aren’t really that sensitive to gear so it doesn’t matter what you put in front of it. There are certain headphones that will punish you greatly for having bad gear in front of it and reward you greatly if you give it adequate power. Radiance and LCD5 are not the headphones I think of. Neither are the list of mid-fi stuff that you listed.
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Flipping a switch from A to B while you’re listening to a song means you’re listening to different parts of the song while trying to compare. I’m just assuming but that’s very difficult to find any differences. You haven’t really expanded on how you test so this might not be a valid point.
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Music - EDM might not have the nuance to really tell the difference. If you’re not listening to real instruments and vocals, any planar should be able to produce electronically produced noises adequately.
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Your own ears. Everyone has different ears. It’s very possible that you cannot hear the differences. My mom went to an ear doctor and he told her that she has troubles listening to certain frequencies which is why she has trouble understanding people when they talk a certain way.
That’s just a list of possible things. There could be more or some of them might not be valid. Go try out more gear before you make the conclusion that everyone is doing you wrong. I don’t follow most reviewers cause I don’t align with their views either but I don’t think they’re intentionally misleading you (except for a few).
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The fundamental problem with fast A/B testing, is all you can really identify quickly is changes in frequency response and if you go look at any graphs of FR of any amp or DAC through a headphone, they all look the same, because the errors are swamped by the headphones errors.
People will often discuss changes in frequency response when they compare amps and DAC’s but it’s not actually what they are hearing, measurements can easily disprove that. That doesn’t mean they don’t hear a difference, but rather that the difference is in the presentation.
There are things that we perceive over time, I think spatial cues are one of them.
I’ve been listening to high end audio gear for 30 years, and at one point a few years ago I had 2 very different ~$5K DAC’s (Lampizator Amber 3 and a Aqua LaVoce S3) connected through a passive pre amp, with the same digital signal fed to both, and while I could hear no change in a rapid A/B. I would regularly accidentally blind test my ability to differentiate the DAC’s, thinking I had one selected when I had the other, and given a minute or so the differences were obvious.
My general approach to comparing anything these days other than just trusting my ears, is to listen for long enough to get used to the new gear, then swapping back.
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These are all suggestions that have been made before and could give reasons to why I don’t think any of these points are valid.
I will keep changing/upgrading my gear (ss amps/dacs) and if I one day I find any something that does add something extra like the Mogwai in the SS world of amps like soundstage, dynamics, better timber etc I will report back.
I was possibly looking in to replacing my SS amp to something more high end in the same price range to the MOGWAI.
But honestly not confident at all this benefit the sound of my LCD-5 (my favorite headphone).
If it does or I come across gear that one day adds something new to my experience I will be excited to report back.
So far the only amp/dac that has added something special is the MOGWAI SE.
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So the whole purpose of your post was to ask which SS amp could provide qualities like Mogwai? Why didn’t you just say so in the first place instead of talking about A/Bing SS amps?
You’ll never find something that’ll sound exactly like a Mogwai SE in SS form. However, there are some SS amps that will beat Mogwai SE in certain aspects.
I see you only mentioned budget SS amps in your previous post. The combination of all those amps combined don’t even reach the cost of a Mogwai SE. If you’re really expecting to compare lower end SS amps with a Mogwai, I don’t know what to tell you.
You’ve taken all our points and basically believe that they are invalid. That’s fine. Only experience will convince you. However, it seems like a fools game to be trying to find a SS amp that beats a tube amp in being a tube amp at 1/3 or less the price.
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I never said that 
Was hoping for someone that possibly has had a similar experience as me trying different ss amps.
Or I mite get some advise on finding a ss amp that mite be worth while compared to my current ones.
But the topic seems to be going nowhere.
Every piece of equipment sounds different and magical 
but basically you need the right ears, the right music, the right cables, the right dac, the right power supply, the right headphones to notice the a meaningful difference.
All is good 
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I don’t think you’re listening/reading anything that we’ve said.
We’ve all had this same experience as you. Nobody is expecting any of the SS amps that you’ve tested to sound any different from each other.
Don’t buy Chinese SS amps all around the same price range expecting anything different.
You’ve shot down most of our recommendations without giving a reason except that you’ve heard those reasons before. Have you even tried testing the list that I sent before dismissing them?
Nobody said that. This is your own notion and conclusion based on trying budget SS amps and one tube amp with an LCD-5 and some mid tier headphones. If you’re looking for magic, I’d suggest you change up your methods.
At no point has anyone said. I agree the amps you have mentioned sound the same to me to or agreed in any way to my findings.
I have currently have 3 SS Amps 2 Chinese and 1 European
Cayin IHA-6 is full balanced discreet push -pull
SH-9 is THX
Rebelamp is Class A
I would expect some difference? Or still no?
Maybe it is my DAC SMSL SU-9? What amp would you recommend for something more revealing? Holo May? Chord TT2? Dave?
I will try your recommendations and report back
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I think we disagree that there are absolutely zero differences. However, I agree that there’s probably very little difference between the Cayin, SH-9, and Rebel. Based on what I’ve seen people say who have owned those in particular, Cayin takes some effort to make sure you have the correct settings for your particular headphones to sound the best. Rebel will sound warmer and possibly less detailed and SH-9 will probably sound compressed with some graininess in the treble.
Just from personal experience, going from a budget/bad SS amp to a nicer one resulted in a few things. Wider soundstage, better separation, less graininess, better macrodynamics and slam, and less treble harshness. It was absolutely night and day (once I knew what to listen for) when I used the headphone jack from my NAD C355bee vs my Luxman P750u.
One possibility if you absolutely hear no differences between all three is that all three are just not powering your LCD-5 adequately so they’re all struggling to produce the differences you’re trying to listen for.
That’s definitely what I think is creating a bottleneck (in addition to the amps) to your chain. I’m a believer in having a balanced system or providing the best you can do your transducer once you find one that you like. Like I said before, everything in front will elevate your headphone. It’s not going to make your LCD-5 sound like a Susvara. However, an increase in slam or bass can make the whole balance of your headphone seem different even though the FR hasn’t really changed.
When I listen for changes, I listen for how realistic the vocals are. Does the vibrato sound real? Does it decay naturally or does it suddenly disappear? Is there a fullness to the voice? Does the singer sound like she’s next to me or just singing to a mic? Are the instruments clearly distinguishable? Are the soft sounds soft yet clear? These are things that can greatly change the experience but not show itself in quick AB testing or in measurements.
If possible, I’d recommend buying a different DAC just to see if you hear anything differently. Maybe one that offers a return policy so you can send it back if nothing changes.
At the end of the day, what is “worth it” or the scale of differences actually vary from person to person. That’s why there are so many hobbies out there. There are people who are willing to pay twice the price for a keyboard switch just because the smoothness of the switch is a little better than another one. Even though that person might find the price difference worth it, there’s probably just as many people who find the difference negligible. If you truly cannot hear the differences or find them not worth the hassle, consider your wallet lucky.
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Agree with this 100%, it’s impossible for someone else to value anything for you, means and how important something is to you vary dramatically by person.
My primary system is expensive for a headphone setup, but quite honestly I occasionally sell gear I have lying around and a HD6XX into a ZDT Jr or SW51+, or Haggerman Tuba, from a Topping D10 is something I could live with quite happily, I just don’t have to.
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Is this a head fi or SBAF thread? Two opposing opinions begin a debate, and then it basically turns into a “nope, you’re wrong and I’m right” conversation. It’s sad we cannot accept someone’s personal experiences and instead have to insist they’re wrong or are “doing it wrong.” Or, reach a new low and insult them by saying their gear is entry level in attempt to win a debate.
This recent conversation could have been handled better by both sides. Let’s all grab some beers and start truly listening to each other rather than immediately thinking about what our response will be. I think we’d find we all actually agree more than not.
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Never did I tell Essential that his gear is entry level to win a debate. There is no debate. He is asking why his testing method resulted in him not being able to hear differences between similar SS amps. Both Generic and I try to provide different ways to approach his testing and possible pitfalls that might be the issue.
You’re making this situation a “us vs him” which I never viewed it as. I can tell from his responses that he is truly wanting to know whether or not there are differences or people are misleading others or delusional. I’m actually quite happy he is willing to take different steps to explore different possibilities.
If you’re not able to see that through our conversation, maybe it would be best to just let the conversation conclude rather than trying to impart your wisdom on the situation that isn’t even correct.
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It’s interesting you immediately assumed I was talking about you. But since you brought yourself into it, see your own text below:
If you don’t think you were debating with @Essentials, I don’t know what else to tell you; we’ll just agree to disagree.
Regardless, instead of debating someone simply because they have different opinions and experiences, I think it better to attempt to help them understand your point of view as well. Like I originally said, it could have been handled better. Nuff said.
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Don’t let anything someone says here or in an online review or YouTube video impact you trying out tube amps. If you want to give them a shot, go for it! A lot of equipment dealers will allow you to bring in your own headphones and try them on their gear; it’s totally worth it in my opinion.
Happy hunting!
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