This might be a question for the Focal Arche thread, but I figured I would try here first since it is specifically these headphones I am using…
I’m curious about some opinions with these headphones powered by a Schiit stack of Bifrost2 and Lyr3 versus the Focal Arche. I understand that both will be fantastic, but I’m curious about detailed differences. Soundstage is pretty important to me, so I don’t know if the Lyr3 hybrid tube will add that little extra.
I have the Bifrost 2 and Lyr 3. They are great, but the Clears to me are better out of the Feliks Audio Echo. No idea about what they’d sound like out of the Arche.
hey my vote is for the lyr3…the echo is a otl design and its spec’d at 100 ohms and higher which is typical of an amp of this design. Yes u can plug lower impedance headphones in and it will play…some say its great but the physics of impedance loads can’t be denied…there will be a coloration mismatch…whether that is good or bad depends on you and what u hear.
The lyr3 will work with many cans high and low impedance and for me it works very well with it. It also has gobs more power.
Good luck on your choice.
Alex
Oh a nice choice for a tube amp is looking at a non otl amp at Felik’s or elsewhere…
I’ve tried this myself and often not heard any negative impact despite the theoretical issues. Or, the impact is only noticeable with some source material. I’ve run various headphones through tone generators and often heard nothing at all below 40Hz. So, I’m wondering if the negatives/bloat are a function of other factors, such as (1) minimum frequency response of a given set of drivers, and (2) the emphasis or range of bass in master recordings.
Someone with a nice test rig and the motivation (@antdroid, @Resolve – fingers crossed) might compare a few sets of headphones on a few amps with different impedance? The physics should be predictable – a few dB may not be material.
100-600 ohms is a generous estimate. It doesn’t change the sound at all besides making the tonality fuller and adding a little bit more bass energy on top of making the treble much more natural. Any random group of people would take the Echo over the Lyr 3 in an A/B test. There is zero loss in dynamics. I think the Lyr is a great option for planars though. I’ve also reached out to Feliks and Upscale Audio customer support before buying the Clears. They confirmed there would be no issues. He’s also asking about the Arche which is in an entirely different league.
Edit: A few people might take the Lyr 3 specifically using Clears. I find the Clears to be on the leaner side so they benefit from a slightly thicker tone. It does get more energy but not a ton.
Upscale Audio says that Focal uses Feliks to test their headphones. Is this what you’ve heard?
Focal used the Feliks TOTL in show with the Utopia. Feliks Euforia 32-600 ohm as stated in their site.
Well why then do they state 100 ohms at all with the Euphoria at all?
If its really a “dont care” then why?
It may not matter to many, but the design is what it is…nothing wrong with the design or how folks want to or do use this amp with low impedance headphones.
I have never had a Feliks product in house but they look like very nice products but like all products there are limitations.
I have tried several OTL amps that have a similar limitation stated. 120 ohms for one world class otl amp, that i have used Focals with and there is a noticebale degradation in the bass with this amp and headphone combination. I can tell with a variety of music…but thats “me” and as always YMMV.
One thing that seems to come up over and over is being on a budget wanting to get a nice amp but being able to afford one and thinking well will this amp work with those headphones I want or have.
And then the compromise starts good or bad.
The old 1/8 rule is just divide the headphone impedance by 8 to get the maximum output impedance without potential audible degradation. Simple. Been around for a long time. Is it incorrect or wrong?
IMO if your spending $1000+ on headphones why not get an amp that will work well with that headphone?
The only way to tell is for YOU to try it out and see if the sound “fits” you…
Alex
More than a few sources explicitly say the Echo & Elear pairing is good (and by extension this would likely apply to the Elex too). I haven’t seen many addressing the Clear.
Just out of curiosity, what would cause any random person to choose the Echo? I have the BF2/Lyr3 combo, but always on the lookout for alternative amps if they can either complement or replace the Lyr3, which I already love on my Stellia.
Like @darrellharwood, I’m particularly interested in the Arche compared to BF2/Lyr3. I don’t like the fact that it’s a hassle to switch from headphones to powered monitors on the Arche but I was thinking of having the Arche just for headphone listening.
I think that statement is a pretty strong statement and needs some backing up as to why our friend SleepyRhythms believes this.
I am not looking to state this is incorrect or in error…its just I would think there would be a random number of folks choosing the Lyr 3 etc…after all dont we all hear differently?
Alex
I agree with this and yes some folks love this amp with Focals with less than the 100 ohm impedance and are very happy, which is great…
But the fact is that 100 ohms is there good or bad and the amp is indeed a transformerless amp.
and so are Schiits Vahalla 2 and the Bottlehead Crack, both stellar amps, the Crack has stated 120 ohm end point and the Vahalla 2 has been re-designed from the original Vahalla to work better with lower impedance headphones, but even Schiit states:
In simpler numbers: 2-8x lower output impedance, 8x lower distortion, 2x more current delivery, and lower noise. In simpler terms: while Valhalla was marginal-to-bad with IEMs and low-impedance headphones, Valhalla 2 is better. It’s not the be-all and end-all, but it’s now a much more well-rounded amp."
and
"Valhalla is still going to be at its best with high-impedance headphones like the 300 ohm Sennheisers and 250-600 ohm Beyers. With up to 60V p-p output capability, it can light up high-impedance headphones. "
The message here is OTL and non-OTL amps are different with differing design points and are optimized for certain loads.
Alex
Update from Upscale Audio about the Clears with the Euphoria:
“You’ll see a bit of bass boost with the Clears through the Euforia due to the impedance swings.”
Yep, yep, yep. I think many want to know if the Echo as an OTL amp will take the edge off the neutral-bright Focal line or turn them into expensive Beats copies. Curiosity killed the audiophile.
I have only one set of high impedance headphones they are the HD600’s sold all my other TOTL cans in that area…and have kept one nice OTL amp just for them its the BH Crack, which when I use it with 50 ohms cans it sucks big time for me…and again YMMV…just not that controlled etc…
And even when I had say the BH Mainline the high Z cans worked very well but that euphonic sound with the BH Crack was missing on these expensive non otl amps for me…
Alex
But its RED!!!
LOL!!
Alex
This brilliant title by @dbstechtalk is in line with my recent experience with that redhead…
It’s worth noting that there are two stated figures for the impedance of Focal’s open back headphones: 80 ohms for the Elear, Elex, and Utopia; and 55 ohms for the Clear. The Clear are extraordinary, then (but we Clear fans already knew this 
)!
I’ve not heard any Feliks Audio amps yet - much as I’d like to - but to add one data point, I’ve found that the low-impedance output of my Massdrop Eddie Current ZDT Jr (32–100 ohms) provides a pleasant but significant degree of bass bloom to my Clear. With certain kinds of music, moods, or personal preferences, I could see this working for people. Out of the high-impedance output (100–600 ohms, according to the specs), that bass bloom becomes far more pronounced, to the point where it fundamentally changes the character of the Clear (again, no comment here about divergent personal preferences, to each their own). I’d rather just get a bassier headphone (the Clear sounds much more like my tubbier and thumpier Fostex TH-X00 Ebony out of the high-impedance out). For reference, my current amp for the Clear is the Drop CTH.
There’s also the Stellia at 35 ohms, but those are closed back.
(Clear fan right here. 
)
Yes, likewise the Radiance and the Elegia. Presumably all are designed for use with DAPs (as are the Clear).
Given the above discussion about pairings with tube amps, I wonder how the Cayin N3Pro DAP would fare with the Clear (or the other, high end Cayin tubey DAP).
I use my Clear with the Schiit Lyr and Rupert Neve Designs RNHP, and both provide good results to my ears.
The Cayin would be interesting to hear.