General purchase advice: Ask your questions/for advice here!

[nostatic]

And just to close the loop. Been putting the SA6 and Andro 2020 through their paces. Different beasts, and I’ll end up keeping both as they kinda scratch different itches. The SA6 is a nice all-round performer, only niggle is fit on the right ear (though I think I’ve sorted the tip), just waiting on a Hart audio cable that should lighten things up and help. I find it to be not particularly harsh anywhere, and has enough warmth for my taste. Rock guitars in particular sound good.

The Andro 2020 is odd. It is smaller/lighter though a bit shallow, but again, I think I’ve found the right tip combination. It is lighter in the bass than the SA6 but isn’t harsh anywhere and if I want a bit more low end experience the xbass on the hipdac or zen dac v2 cover that. I usually leave it off though, as I like the detail that I get down low without a lot of upper-low push. There is something about the Andro 2020 that I can’t put my finger on but I like it a lot. I don’t know if it is the imaging or note attack/decay or good old confirmation bias but I like it. They are really sensitive so the iPhone drives them no problem. I’m just figuring out if I want to run the IEMatch as they may be a bit too easy to drive. We’ll see.

So happy camper here. Now just waiting for the Hart Audio cables to get here so I can run the Andro balanced and drop some weight from the SA6. The listening continues, thanks to all here for their input.

That said, I still am curious about U6t. I suppose it never ends until you’re dead…

[Nuance]

@nostatic

I suppose it never ends until you’re dead…

Aint that the truth!

[elliot]

I’ve spoken to the folks at Headphones.com on my continued quest for a semi-audiophile gym headphone. Two that came up:

Meze 99s
ATH-MSR7b

Anyone ever listen to either of these and/or comment on build quality?

[ProfFalkin]

I like the 99 classics. They’re far from perfect, but they’re perfectly fun.

[elliot]

That’s exactly what I’ve heard. Easy to drive and fun. Now it just durability.

[thesoundapprentice]

99 are durable, but I don’t imagine them being comfortable for the gym given the spring band that extends above your head (unless you have a large head). I prefer an IEM for the gym/exercise.

[InvisibleInk]

I’ll repeat and then be quiet. You’re going to need substantial clamp force. Imagine bench pressing or rowing, only to have your headphones needing to be constantly adjusted, or worse, coming off and and hitting the ground. Good luck.

[generic]

Bluetooth IEMs were transformative and head-and-shoulders better than any other worn solution. Bigger and heavier items = sloppy and interfering and hot and sweat-catching. Headphone/IEM cables are pure evil during physical activity, let alone a workout. I danced with glee when I first got Bluetooth IEMs…probably literally…I could suddenly move without constant snags and adjustments.

I like the idea of speakers in a private space, but I HATE speakers in public gyms. Been there, heard that. Lady Gag-Gag and pop-country blasted at 90 dB.

I simply cannot hear the quality differences between mass-market and premium audio products when working out either. Rapid heart rate, rapid breathing, noise from clothing, movement, and machines (and Lady Gag-Gag sometimes).

[InvisibleInk]

I agree with you, but the OP basically ruled out IEMs and on-ears from the outset. I am merely offering advice on a critical factor if our new friend is determined to proceed with over-ears headphones. Are we just going to keep trying to change his mind and get him to choose standard gym wear bluetooth IEMs? I don’t don’t think that’s going to work. I feel the best we can do is make sure he gets the best possible outcome for his predetermined choice in the matter.

[neo_the_one]

I am looking for an android based DAP that I will be primarily be using with external DAC. What are the options here the requirements being -

1. Latest android where I can download the latest apps I want.
2. Can be connected to external DAC via USB. Would be great if has USB C output.

Don’t really care how good the DAP sounds as long as the above criteria are satisfied. I know a better option would be to buy a proper digital streamer with AirPlay, but I want this to be a stopgap solution till I decide which streamer to buy.

[one1oh0]

The FiiO M11 Plus uses Android 10 and has USB-C output. I have successfully installed a few apps from the Google Play Store but have not tried outputting to an external DAC.

The LTD version with AKM chips may still be available or the ESS chip version is supposed to be available in late ‘21, last I heard.

[Digitalcrack_s_Plus]

So this is what I have …58x, 789, (waiting on my Soncoz balance DAC delivery) and Schitt Modi 3.

What I listen to…Han Zimmer, Future, Metalica, Boris Brejcha, Break of Reality, basically everything but country.

Elements that are important to me: Crisp highs without being overdone, Sub-bass, mids, butter vocals, intimacy over a large sound stage, and imaging.

Pet peeves: High cost without equal performance to justify it. Don’t ask for $500 if your headphone can’t outperform my 58x by at least $300 worth of sound.

My experience …Had the Sundara’s but they weren’t better than the 58x for the areas I look for. Yes, they had better resolution and soundstage. But 58x had better vocal, better intimacy because of the smaller soundstage, better imaging, dynamic and power, and better sub-bass and mids. Ultimately I was listening to music with the Sundara…but I was experiencing music with the 58x.

And based on sites like Rting…all other 600 series Sennheisers only are minor differences between the 58x and in my areas of focus …the 58x checks the most boxes for those areas like sub-bass, imaging, and mid, even according to the measurements Rting did.

What I’m looking for …So based on that …I’m wondering …what headphone is better for me based on my target areas of focus and my music at any price up to $1000 because as it stands today and my experience and needs I see no headphone out there that outperforms the 58x in terms of performance and price matching said performance. So basically, I’m fine with any price up to $1000 as long as the performance equals the same price tag difference in performance over the 58x. In other words, If you are a $250 headphone and the 58x is $170…that headphone’s performance should be a matching difference with its asking price vs the 58x asking price in performance that is better than the 58x in my areas of importance.

[SenyorC]

I’m sorry to say that there is this thing called diminishing returns and where it starts depends on each of our own tastes and preferences, along with what we associate to money.

As the prices climb, the differences become smaller and personal preference takes a larger and larger part.

What I am saying with this is that, while I may see headphone A that I feel is not worth more than headphone B, to others that same headphone A may be worth 3 times the price of B.

It is very difficult to put a price on sound as each of our own preferences to sound vary.

[raindownthunda]

Focal Clear might be worth checking out for a clear step up in resolution, speed, dynamics and have a more intimate presentation. As @SenyorC said, you should not expect the performance to scale linearly with price.

[generic]

@SenyorC

diminishing returns

This is exactly correct.

Ignore Rtings and the opinions of others. Try for yourself.

I recommend that you try a much larger jump in price than from the 58x to the Sundara. You might jump to the $1,000 to $1,500 Focal Clear (OG or MG), ~$1,500 Sennheiser HD 800 S, $3,000 ZMF Verite, $4,000 to $5,000 Focal Utopia, Audeze 5, etc. These headphones often require more expensive DACs and amps to sound their best. We are not all made of money, so we try demo in a store, go to local audio meet-ups, and join gear tours (mailed from person to person).

Trying the best shows the maximum potential versus incremental gains. Some are happy to not move up in price, while others jump to the max.They may spend a LOT of money for relatively small improvements. Sometimes people also buy because of comfort, aesthetics, or build quality beyond sound quality too. No one can tell you or them what is “worth” the money.

[Roark]

Finding the right headphone is a lot like dating, you will go out on dates where you spent a lot of money and your time, only to go home wondering why you went on that date.

You will go on several of these until you find the one that clicks.

[flashbolt]

Think about it like this. It sounds to me like you’re saying “No car outperforms the Ford Fiesta on Price/Performance” (no offense to any Fiesta owners).

You should do this hobby the way you feel most comfortable, but I think you’re arbitrarily limiting your experience, and furthermore, what kind of basis would I (or anyone else) have for assigning an absolute dollar value to each quantum of sound performance?

Back to the car analogy:
Do you want the things that other, more expensive cards have? Bigger engines, more advanced safety, tech and comfort features? Then you have to pay for them.

I think you would have a better experience if you you instead asked yourself how much you’re willing to invest in your hobby and then looked for things that were considered good performers at that price.

[Tchoupitoulas]

I agree with all the other replies - especially about diminishing returns, hearing how the best headphones sound for comparative purposes, and considering the Focal Clear as another option. I’ll add a couple of further suggestions.

First, if you were to get the Clear, you should consider also getting a different amp than the 789. It doesn’t pair well with the Clear. In this hobby much depends on finding a good synergy between headphones, amps, and DACs.

Second, if you like the 58x, you might invest some of your funds in other amps. You might like to try the Vali 2+, for instance. You might even consider something like the RebelAmp or the Schiit Lyr 3 or a tube amp like the Bottlehead Crack.

Third, and related to the second point, I’m not sure how high the 58x scales. The HD 600 and 650 both scale a great deal with better gear, and you might consider getting one of those if the 58x doesn’t scale much.

In case you’re not familiar with the term, scaling refers to the ability of a transducer to improve with better DACs and, in particular, amps. Some headphones don’t scale very high, which means that you could pair them with totl gear and the headphones won’t sound all that much better than they do with entry-level gear. This stands in contrast to headphones like the HD 600 and 650 that scale incredibly highly such that some folks consider them to be rivals for high-end headphones that cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars more.

Fourth, the HD 600 and 650 won’t do much for you when it comes to sub-bass. They’re great for mids, vocals, and intimacy. Their imaging, to me (and I have both), is acceptable but it’s not a selling point for them - but then again I don’t have totl gear to drive them. The Clear do check all the boxes, though. I’ve not heard it but the LCD-X 2021 might be of interest, too - based on what I’ve seen from people’s impressions on forums. (I’m looking forward to trying the latest LCD-X myself). Finally, and again, be mindful that some headphones and amps don’t pair well together - I don’t know if the THX 789 would work well or nor with the LCD-X 2021.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[ckhirnigs113]

I need some advice on whether or not I need to invest in a dedicated streamer. I have a relatively good headphone setup: Bifrost 2 > Quicksilver Headphone Amp > ZMF Auteur w/ 2K Copper cable (just sold my Verite Closed but plan to get another one during next LTD release).

For a couple of years I have been using my iPhone as my only source. I use Tidal about 95% of the time for streaming music. I connect the iPhone to the Bifrost 2 via USB using the Apple CKK adapter. To my ears the sound quality is excellent using this method.

Every once in a while I look at the $4500 worth of audio equipment next to me and feel incredibly silly to be using a phone as my source. Am I creating a bottleneck using the iPhone? I wonder if I would hear a big difference if I bought something like the iFi Zen Stream or Pi2AES for my Tidal streaming. Has anyone made a similar move to a dedicated streamer from a phone source and noticed a noticeable upgrade in sound?

[pennstac]

The 58x doesn’t scale like the 650, but it does benefit from a more synergistic amp. A DAC adds detail compared to iPhone out, but not, to my ear beyond a certain point. I have a 580 and hear little difference between a Dragonfly (black and blue), iFi xDSD, or my Schiit Bifrost2. That’s a pretty big range.

It does sound better with the Lyr3 amp. Having no other tube amp, I can only expect that tube harmonics would compliment its sound.

Agree regarding scaling. The 58x is an exceptional buy that means any expectation of linear improvement with price is certain to disappoint. Better to compare it as the $300+ 1999 dollars I paid for my original HD-580.

I would suggest if an overall improvement is desired at a reasonable price to look for a used Grado RS-1e and buy the Beautiful Sound pads. This should produce a similar sound but more extended in both bass and treble with considerably wider soundstage and far more detail.