Yeah, one of Zeos Pantera’s more useful YouTube videos, in which we watch him stretching the headband
1 Like
Thanks for the help, everyone! I have a lot to think about now. 
1 Like
Among the memorable experiences I’ve had listening to stuff I’ll probably never be able to own were the Martin-Logan CLS IIz and the Quad USA 63 monitors. Little doubt about the attraction – they both have marvelous midranges.
So, I’m wondering if some of that same midrange magic is available in electrostatic headphones, and, if so, what’s the entry point price-wise? Note that I’m not asking what’s the cheapest way to get setup with some electrostatic headphones, but what’s the cheapest way to get some that reflect at least a reasonable portion of that M-L / Quad performance. I’m curious about the Nectar HiveX in this regard, but of course the main question is more general, and I’m wondering about energizer/amp pairings as well as the headphones themselves to properly figure the cost.
Thanks for the help,
Lou
If you are curious, but on a budget, you need to check Birgir’s used / special / one-off page at least occasionally. There you get stuff he personally futzed around with ( techncial term ). You can usually find some nice price/performance there.
https://mjolnir-audio.com/used-amplifiers/
I have one of his older amp mods, and I would like to circle around, get my ducks in a row, and reach out to say that this stuff punches above its weight at the end of the day, until the fat lady sings. Can I say that last?
I have an SRM-T1S like one in the link (only black) because I still have an OLD Stax headphone I bought new and need Normal bias for that as well as the Nectar Hive. And yes, I loved electrostatic speakers first too.
2 Likes
Hello everyone,
In the past few days, i’ve been watching and reading a lot of reviews about headphones, DACs and AMPs. Everything is starting to be more clear now but I’d like to have some more personalized advice before I go and purchase what I want.
Quick background:
- Desktop audio chipset: Realtek S1220A. I wonder if it could be enough to drive the Sundara.
- Current open-back headphones: Philips Fidelio X2. I actually think/thought these were really good headphones. I really enjoy the openness compared to my old HD25. It’s also very comfortable. However it’s not aging well and it’s now in really poor condition. Also, I would like to try something more high-end/neutral.
- Current bluetooth headphones: Sony WH-1000XM3. I do realize these are far from neutral, but when taking transports or being outdoor, I find them very convenient. They have a lot of bass but I still enjoy them.
- Current DJ headphones: Sennheiser Amperior. They were my headphones for a long time but I barely used them anymore.
- Current home speakers: Triangle Color 123. I really like them, they’re active. For the price (I bought them for around 250€), I think it’s a decent deal.
- Current bluetooth speakers: Bose Soundlink mini 2. Again, not a very neutral sound, but I find them really nice sounding on the go. I might upgrade to a JBL Charge 5 in the near future as battery life is starting to get really bad on my minilink.
As you can see, ATM, I have products that are very mainstream/consumer orientated, and not really audiophile/hi-fi oriented.
However, I’m really fascinated about music and I’d like to step up my game. I don’t really have a precise budget, but basically I would like to have a good experience without spending too much. Overall, if I could spend less than 600€, it would be ideal. I could go a bit higher, if I really benefit from it. Here are the options that stood out for me so far:
- Headphones: Sundara / HD560s. The Sundara seem significantly better overall but I’m a bit worried about QC and the fact they need more EQ than HD560s, from my understanding at least. There are already tons of threads about these two cans so I get it’s just up to me to decide at this point. If you have experienced both of them, I’d be curious to read your point of view.
- DAC/AMP: this is the part where I was absolutely lost a few days ago since I’ve never used any. From what I’ve understood, they have improved a lot in the last few years and you can get really good hardware for a reasonable price. At the beginning, I was leaning towards the Topping L30 + E30 but apparently, you can get really good combos, such as the Fiio K5 Pro ESS or the DX3 Pro+. What is your take on these?
Thanks a lot in advance for your help!
1 Like
It sounds like you have done your research.
.
I own both HiFiman Sundara (2021) and Philips X2HR. The Sundara is a good choice and you should notice improvement in sound over your Philips X2HR. Even though HiFiman has a history of problems with quality control, the Sundara does not seem to suffer much from this compared to other models such as the notorious HiFiMan HE6se V2. I own two HE6se and had to return one of them due to defect new straight from the box. Hifiman and Adorama have stood behind their sales and I have been happy with all of my HiFiMan headphones of my collection.
.
I did own the Topping L30 that blew up and it destroyed my headphones. Afterwards was a nightmare dealing with a deceitful Topping company. I recommend that you stay far from Topping.
.
I don’t own any Fiio headphone amplifiers but they seem to have a good reputation and lots of happy owners. You should be fine with most any model of Fiio as the Sundara are easy to amplify and sound good out of most all of my amplifiers.
3 Likes
I’m guessing that you are located in Europe? Perhaps @SenyorC might have a comment, or perhaps @Lothar_Wolf. Among us here, iFi is well thought of, in addition to the ones you mentioned. Probably you should decide if transportability is needed, and have that guide your decision. I recently bought a FiiO K9 Pro ESS, and have been pleased not only with the sound, but has the build quality of Page 3 of the SUN in its heyday.
Thank you, I couldn’t have asked for someone with a better experience! So what AMP/DAC are you currently using with your Sundara?
I don’t own a Sundara, but I do own HiFiMan HE-400se and Edition XS. Also own Sennheiser HD 6XX.
All three work beautifully with the JDS Labs Atom+ DAC/amp stack. The stack – comprised of separate DAC and amp units – costs $210 new. Plenty of ample, super-clean power for both of those cans.
The Atom stack uses hard plastic cases to cut costs, as JDS prefers to focus on the electronic guts rather than aesthetics. That said, the build quality is excellent, and the customer service is even better. I’m not a jingoist, but it’s also nice that JDS products are designed and made in the USA.
2 Likes
My HiFiman Sundara (2021) really sound very good out of so many of my amplifiers. However if I were to list my top three favorite amplifier pairing with the Sundara, they would fall in this order:
- Rebel Audio RebelAmp
- Ray Samuels Audio Emmeline HR-2
- Questyle CMA Twelve
Honorable mention - Headamp GS-X mini Worthy mention but comparatively less bass than above three and the soundstage is spread wide but thin, a sense of clearness.
If you don’t intend to collect many headphones, you would do just fine going with less expensive budget friendly amplifiers with the Sundara. It really does sound great even from many inexpensive amplifiers.
As for DACs, I mostly use an OG Schiit Bifrost 2 and am happy with it. If I were to use one of my $100 DACs in its place, I would still enjoy and be satisfied with the end product. But yes, if you have the funds, buy once, cry once and perhaps jump to a pricier DAC.
Solid advice, although not sure what shipping would cost. With that said @Tomatot if you can spend a bit more, the JDS Labs Element III is an all-in-one unit that has plenty of power for the Sundara or HD 6XX and is also beautiful to look at.
Yeah, plus one for iFi. The Gryphon seems like a great fit for the Sundara.
2 Likes
That’s a lot of money… and I don’t think I need something portable. But always good to see more recommendations.
Regarding the JDS Labs Element III @Nuance, how would it benefit me compared to the cheaper products previously mentioned? It doesn’t seem like I can get my hands on it easily anyway unfortunately.
I heard a lot about these products as well, although they don’t seem to be very easily available in Europe… I’d be more comfortable with products I can buy from Amazon, mostly thanks to their return policy.
That’s a very good guess! I don’t think I will be carrying it around a lot but it can happen. I see a lot of people are mentioning build quality, but all AMP/DACs I’ve seen to be really well made, so how do iFi products stand out?
Disclaimer: I am an iFi fan 
iFi are a company that sort of do their own thing, both with their sound and their aesthetics.
As far as aesthetics go, you can judge those for yourself by looking at photos. For the sound, the iFi “house sound” tends to be a little on the warmer side than other alternatives, such as Topping etc. While the difference is noticeable, it is not a night and day difference, in other words, there will be far more difference between the headphones you chose than the choice of amps/DACs.
The iFi Signature Stack HFM is something that is designed around Hifiman headphones (in case you should decide on the Sundara) but the price basically uses up the whole budget you were mentioning (599€) and I am guessing that you were wanting to use that budget for both headphones plus DAC/amp.
The Gryphon (mentioned above) is a great piece of equipment. I don’t have the Sundara on hand (I do have the closed back version here) but I do have a lot of other Hifiman models and the Gryphon does a great job.
I also have the L30 you mention and it is ok but it wouldn’t be my recommendation personally. I prefer the Atom but that is almost impossible to find in Europe.
In general, iFi makes some great stuff. There is also the new One series that is much more budget friendly and while it doesn’t bring out the best in planars, it still does a good job.
All of the things I have mentioned I have reviewed here on the forum in case you want more info.
2 Likes
Thanks for your insight. I still struggle to understand how much I would benefit from these pricier options compared to cheaper ones. How is the ActivEQ on the Signature Stack HFM? Does it add anything compared to a traditional EQ?
What’s your take on the Fiio K5 Pro ESS or Fiio products in general?
What about the IFI Zen Air Dac? It seems to have amazing value but maybe it’s not very future proof in case I later get headphones that need more juice?
I’d personally go with the Sennheiser HD 600 or HD 650 because they are reliable standards. They both also scale up with better equipment, while the Senn 500 family will sound pretty much the same no matter the amp chosen. The Sundara will surely sound good, but you were warned about QC and reliability. I hope you take the warnings seriously. I’ve personally moved on from HiFiMan and won’t buy or recommend them.
I previously owned a couple FiiO mobile DAC/amps. They were reliable and solidly built, but the DACs tended toward harsh treble and whining. This was several years back. I do trust FiiO as a brand and would consider their products again.
I also own the iFi ZenDAC V1 (now replaced by the V2; it is an integrated DAC and amp). They can be had for <$200 US, and is my first choice in this price bracket. I like it because it’s not as bright or harsh as many competitors, and painful brightness is a common failing in the entry-level price bracket. The ZenDAC runs the Sennheiser HD 600 and HD 650 fine. I’d guess it’d be “okay” with the Sundara, but no personal experience.
For a 600€ budget I’d personally go for the Sennheiser HD 600 (neutral to bright) to be paired with the warmish iFi ZenDAC (warmer and easier on the ears than many lean/clean/bright Chinese products; often Topping, SMSL, FiiO, etc.). The ZenDAC offers a balanced cable output, which will clean up many headphones. As @SenyorC notes, you might also upgrade to another iFi product for more power.
Your ears must tell you directly. Many ask this question, but $100 or $1,000 or $10,000 means something different to each person. Also, some of us have young and good ears while others have damaged or older ears and don’t hear as well.
The iFi EQ is something that is fixed to what they interpret as improving the sound. Whether or not you agree is up to your ears
The thing that iFi take pride in is in using EQ only in the Analog domain, with no digital manipulation. Again, if that is better or not is up to the interpretation of each person.
The ZEN Air DAC is actually what I meant when I said One series, sorry about that, I got the models confused. The Zen Air DAC is a decent DAC that you can always add an amp to if you need it.
I can’t comment on Fiio, sorry.