Hifiman Sundara Open-Back Planar Magnetic Headphones - Official Thread

In my experience the DAC’s technology is more important than balanced architecture. In my experience balanced anything doesn’t make much difference for planar headphones.

I’m using the balanced Bifrost 2 with the NON-BALANCED RebelAmp which renders balanced pointless. I’m using the standard RCA output (also see @Lothar_Wolf and the RebelAmp).

Overkill may be desirable for the amp, while the DAC sets the stage for the potential of the amp. The Bifrost 2 is more nuanced than my AKM DAC – see my comments in the Bifrost 2 thread.

2 Likes

I’m looking into a balanced DAC because I already purchased an amp that only has balanced in/balanced out (Geshelli Erish), but I appreciate the thoughts on the DAC’s technology being more important than the balanced architecture.

My question is more geared toward understanding if the Sundara would still get the most out of a Topping D70s or Bifrost 2 or if the Sundara has its limits, so much that I should stick with a more budget friendly DAC like a Schiit Modius or Soncoz LA-QXD1.

2 Likes

Yes, I understood and wrote my thoughts on the Bifrost 2 here: Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC - Official Thread - #379 by generic

With the Bifrost’s improvements to my AFC, Clear, and HD-600 I think you may well hear improvements even with the Sundara. However, the amp is likely to have a larger impact.

3 Likes

Today is the day when I have to expressly apologize to @Resolve :


Andrew :pray: :pray: :pray: :wink:


My previous experiences with Hifiman headphones have been rather negative, due to poor workmanship and exaggerated tonal tuning, I wasn’t really able to gain anything from Hifiman products.

With the Sundara, since years of abstinence from this brand,
I have dared a “fresh start” for the first time and found it from the beginning, in connection with my Rebel Amp and a Questyle DAC, above average in its price class, but the total enthusiasm of Andrew, I couldn’t quite understand this intensity, especially since there are some really good headphones in this price range.

I’ve had to revise that since last Friday;

I dare to say that the Sundara is REALLY superior to any headphones in this price category.

Why?

Well, because of this little “helper”, which really proves again how important the interaction of hi-fi components really is!

I paired it with the sundara for the first time on that day and tried out various settings.

And lo and behold:

Suddenly the, xBass & 3D switch really make sense.
Before, I only used them on one or the other of the in-ear headphones and on my GRADO’s so far.

And it made: :boom: :dizzy: :100:

Such a large number of details,
precise spatial representation,
pronounced selectivity in the imaging of the various voices and instruments,
the possibility of exact localization of each reproduced tone in the room,
the ability to reproduce low bass frequencies and controlled with a powerful slap and punch (a skill that many of these talk about headphones)
and hardly overwhelmed with really busy tracks.

And the whole thing, almost across genres,
you really rarely don‘t have the feeling that you have to reduce the volume during a song.

I’ll give you a few examples from my test track list to support these statements:


1.)

A challenging busy track:

After 48 seconds a deep bass starts in the background, which comes across as really grumbling,
from minute 1:22 the violins play their way into the foreground and Björk’s voice is inserted into a ring of instruments, so to speak.

At no time does the voice get lost or is “overplayed” by the orchestra around Björk.

(The concentrated Sennheiser 6xx series presents a certain “mushy” at the latest, and is a bit overwhelmed in these passages)

Nevertheless, you can always focus on each individual instrument if you want.

Even my beloved Grado SR2e doesn’t get the 3-dimensionality and airiness between the instruments shown in this form :unamused:.


2:)

A track with a lot of small details that only a few headphones, especially in this price range, are able to reproduce so clearly.

Practically from the first second, the foot pedals of the piano can be heard, from second 20, onwards there is one or the other mechanical noise of the cable pulls.

In addition, the strength of the touch of the keyboards is wonderfully perceptible, and the quality of the tonal decay of the played tones is fabulous spatially available.

From a second 38 onwards, Sara’s breathing technique starts audibly.

After 1:10 minute you can hear the lips moving apart and sticking together slightly.

From minute 1:15 it gets interesting, from then on there are a few words that contain the letters S, F, T, and the recording shows that these, with most headphones, cause stabbing on the ear drum, not like that with this AMP headphone combination.
The Sundara is able to convey this passage extremely refreshingly and sparkly to the listener.

The highly acclaimed Focal Clear in particular absolutely disappointed me with this song, all of these details were only roughly hinted at with this one.


3.)

An example of the deep bass capabilities of this Can.

First the very crisp depiction of the falling stones / pearls, then the spacious echo of the singing bowls.

Then in 11 seconds the powerful bass element swashing in from left to right in the background.

Which strikes ryhmically and very deeply from the second 23 onwards. Before 35 seconds the bass gets really intensely punchy.

Here, in turn, the Focal Clear has its “shining moment”, it masters this genre like hardly any other headphones in my collection.


4.)

A wonderful example of how the size of the room can be perceived by simply reproducing a few tones (piano strokes) and their fading away in the room.

When Lou after 43 seconds just loosens her lips and opens her mouth, the arc of tension literally rises, in anticipation of what will be presented next.

This kind of emotionality that can be created by simply reproducing the recordings and the headphones is what I talk about when I rave about my GRADO’s.

Especially the GS3000e and the RS2e are fantastic at it.

Again, the Focal Clear is unable to do this, it just sounds too mechanical / technical for that.
This is where he has his qualities.

The same applies (technically sounding), with the exception of live recordings and classical music performance, also for the Sennheiser HD800s, in this genre it is (for me at least) the master of all classes.


5.)

Here we have an example of detail, spatiality, bass and a “difficult voice.”

Right at the beginning, you hear very brief mechanical noises, then the tones that sound in the room, at a tonal frequency that can hurt one or the other headphone.

From 18 seconds onwards, the bass drum, which with other headphones
(Sennheiser 6xx series),
sounds rather washed-out, but is reproduced in a somewhat structured manner due to the recording with my combo…

At 1:13 the sudden fade-in of the audience, where every viewer can be clearly located.

At 1:24 am Emiliana starts singing, her voice is just as “borderline” for me as the lady following in the next example.

The Sundara, together with the signature, actually makes it possible for me to endure this voice with a Planar magnetic headphone, even with a certain enjoyment factor :partying_face:

Until then, unthinkable for me in the planar headphone sector.

Compliment :bangbang:

If you want to know what I’m talking about, you should listen to this song on a Beyerdynaic DT1990 pro, then this peron will probably have to consult an ear doctor.


6.)

One last example of how this combo, and thus of course the headphones themselves, can shine with a very busy, high-pitched, fast song with an intense vocal range.

First the reproduction of the double bass (where the focal clear occasionally starts to clip), which is reproduced here cleanly, accompanied by Petra Magoni, who is sharply separated from the rest of the instruments.
(Here Dan ClarK headphones have time and again problems separating them)

The track lives from a constant increase in intensity, from minute 3:18, the voice register is then in the high range that drives many headphones crazy,
if not even before the driver through the vibrations of the bass, the drivers have started to flutter.

With many headphones, such pieces of music can only be played at a very limited volume, otherwise mechanical problems arise with the drivers.

Here at the latest, my beloved Koss absolutely reach their limits, to present this kind of music cleanly.

So here too, compliments to Hifiman :100: :bangbang: :+1:

E5CE11A9-6DD7-4E97-9D62-62E611F000A9_4_5005_c

For all these reasons I tried the Ananda in the same pairing, and lo and behold:

An increase in what I have experienced with the Sundara is absolutely noticeable.

Now I am considering whether to buy the Susvara, but I still have such slight inhibitions for this price, based on my previous experiences.

Possibly just an Abyss Diana Phi, with V2 pads, is probably the more solid choice,

let’s see :man_shrugging:

10 Likes

A great writeup @Lothar_Wolf and I love your song comparisons too.

1 Like

Just a note in case it might help anyone: The Sundara was uncomfortable for me over long periods due to the clamp force, particularly the bottom of the ear cups against my upper jaw. I was despairing that I’d need to buy new headphones just for comfort even though these sounds great, and then I read online that you can bend the metal top band a bit to relieve the clamp force (similar to what people do with Sennheiser headphones). This has worked wonders, and made the headphone much more comfortable to wear.

3 Likes

Anyone have any insight into whether the headphone jack of my Naim Nait 5si integrated would be sufficient power? The Dac is a Gustard X15

I currently own the HE-400i cans that I purchased in 2021. While I really enjoy the “texture” of the soundstage, I’m looking for something a little bit more dense and well defined. I’m feeding the HE-400i with a iFi Zen DAC v2, custom USB 3.0 A-B cables and the ifi iPurifier3 to keep the digital signal “honest” and clean. In reading your review of the Sundara, I get the impression that you would like them better with a slight boost in the upper midrange to flatten what appears to be a dip around 700-Hz. What do you think?

1 Like

I am not really aware of a 700Hz dip, are referring to a dip on the Sundara or HE400i?

To be honest, it has been a very long time since I listened to the Sundara and the one I reviewed was one of the very first models, so I believe that they have been revised slightly since then (at least once, maybe twice).

I wasn’t a huge fan of the HE400i but I am no longer sure if it was because it had some kind of issue that made it sound different to those received by others or if it was simply because I didn’t like it (as I haven’t listened to another pair, I can’t say).

Due to both of these reasons, added to the fact that I have listened to a lot more headphones since then (which may have changed my tastes), commenting on how I would prefer the Sundara eq’d wouldn’t really be based on any fact, it would be more of a guess.

1 Like

I’m new to the headphone club. I bought the Sundaras about a month ago and I have a question. I am using a Schiit Magni 3+ connected to my iPad playing flac.

The crinkles, it sounds like a light rain on my skylight. It only occurs after I have been listening for a couple of hours. I am not sure I understand the explanation about air pressure causing the issue. I can hear the problem even when I hold the cups away from my ears. It continues even after disconnecting from the amp. Is this normal and does it go away or do folks just live with it?

Overall I love the headphones, they are exactly what I was looking for - great definition, full range and just the right amount of punch.

Welcome to the forum.

Please say more about the ‘crinkles’? Is the sound coming from the headphones when you move them? Does the sound happen when they are not being touched at all? Or, does the sound start to come from your ears/hearing system over time?

If they make odd noises when you touch them it could be from the plastic and metal moving together without lubrication. This is not rare with HiFiMan products. Some may try a silicone lubricant on the rubbing surfaces. If the headphones start to make odd noises on their own then it’s probably a wiring short or electrical issue – send them in for service or replacement.

If it you are hearing crinkles when away from the headphones then it’s probably biological hearing fatigue or tinnitus. Solutions include using them less to reduce fatigue, changing your equipment to products that don’t cause fatigue, or trying medical and dietary approaches (e.g., see the Hearing and Health threads).

2 Likes

The crinkling sound emanates from the inside of the headphone cups (ears are okay :slightly_smiling_face:). It happens when I am still and the crinkle sound does not increase when I move around.
I don’t think it’s electrical since it happens when not plugged in.
It also happens to both sides, which made me think that this might be a common thing.

That could be driver flex or chassis creaks. Neither would be a surprise with HiFiMan’s products. I don’t think there’s much to do for driver flex, but perhaps lubricating the chassis with silicone or a light oil would help.

1 Like

How much time is left on your warranty? If it’s not much, get a replacement. With HiFiMan’s notoriety for poor quality control, I wouldn’t risk keeping them beyond their warranty period.

Edit: I wonder if it’s a problem with the drivers. Driver flex, if I understand correctly, happens when putting on the headphones as the air pressure shifts. Some Audeze headphones are known for this, to the point where Audeze has warned people to put on the headphones gently. Here’s the warning:

Since air is trapped between your head and the diaphragm it creates a pressure zone, and as the headphones shift with movement you may hear a slight crinkling sound from the diaphragm. This is a normal occurrence with planar magnetic drivers and is nothing to be concerned about, it’s the sound of the thin diaphragm moving back and forth with the changes in air pressure.

Sometimes as the driver film stretches slightly with age, the sound can become more apparent, and sometimes it may also lessen again. This is mostly influenced by factors in your environment (such as temperature and humidity), and we don’t have control over whether or not this occurs.

We recommend exercising certain cautions when handling planar magnetic headphones: trapped air can create high pressure and sudden pressure changes could damage the diaphragms, and this is not covered by warranty. When you put the headphones on or take them off, it’s not a good idea to press them hard and fast against the head, so we recommend slow and steady movement to allow the air pressure to stabilize.

2 Likes

I recall this topic on this forum, but I’m struggling to recall which headphone it was for; could have been Audeze or HiFiMan… Regardless, I thought it was deemed “normal” for planars and had to do with pressure during seal - wasn’t supposed to effect the sound quality.

Edit: it was this thread - see Chrono’s post from May of 2020 and then keep reading after that.

3 Likes

Today I have a Sennheiser HD 599 SE but use it mainly for gaming with a Soundblaster G6 but I would like to start on the audiophile field. Since my currency is almost 6x lower than US dollar it’s hard for me to get really expensive headphones. I bought the HIFIMAN SUNDARA 2020 version and would like your suggestion on which AMP/DACs should I buy. I don’t know if I’ll be ever able to upgrade this headphone due to this currency issue. Should I get a THX AAA Dual 788 DAC/AMP, or a Topping combo or a Shiit combo? I think I can afford around 600 dollars for this AMP/DAC.

1 Like

Cute kids - unless that’s an old picture. You also might want to look into iFi products for your stack. I don’t know where you are located, but sometimes what country you are in will make a difference in the prices you pay.

It may help a bit to describe what you like and don’t like in music, and how you think your headphones sound now. At about $600 for DAC and AMP - or a single unit for both - you will find many competent options. You might not have to spend quite that much.

Thank you. This is a one year old picture and they still look cute :grin:
I live in Brazil but I’m gonna buy the AMP/DAC in US. $600 total.
I like to listen to Classical music and Rock/POP mostly.

Forgot to tell about how my headphones sounds now. I think they sound good but I never tried anything but this Sennheiser HD 599 SE. So I don’t have a way to compare.

Have you listened to live music? When you say Classical, that gives a lot of possibilities for comparison. Listen to the strings, do they sound forward? muffled? Can you tell where the instruments are? Do cymbals shimmer, or sound like sandpaper? Are TomToms deep, can you feel them? That’s what I mean by describing how the headphones sound. I’m sorry if I just ruined all music for you. Santos DuMont was the first real aviator.

1 Like