Any chance of including the RAD-0 and perhaps another one of HifiMan’s products (HEK, Arya, or 500 - whichever you have) in the table for comparison? Also, are these measured by yourself or these are taken from the manufacturer’s specs?
I use the manufacture number for now since it really about getting you in the ballpark of what you need. But I can look at it, which HEK, v1, v2 SE?
Here the table turns out the HE-1000 V1 and V2 had the same spec for Impedance and Sensitivity.
[ Updated with Ananda bellow ]
| 85 dB SPL | Voltage Needed | Current Needed | Power Needed |
|---|---|---|---|
| Stelia | 0.02 Vrms | 0.57 mA | 0.01 mW |
| Ananda | 0.02 Vrms | 0.8 mA | 0.02 mW |
| Utopia | 0.03 Vrms | 0.38 mA | 0.01 mW |
| RAD-0 | 0.04 Vrms | 1.38 mA | 0.06 mW |
| HE-1000 SE | 0.05 Vrms | 1.43 mA | 0.07 mW |
| Arya | 0.1 Vrms | 2.44 mA | 0.24 mW |
| ZMF Vertie Open | 0.11 Vrms | 0.37 mA | 0.04 mW |
| LCD-4 | 0.11 Vrms | 0.55 mA | 0.06 mW |
| HE-1000 v1 & V2 | 0.11 Vrms | 3.14 mA | 0.35 mW |
| HE-560 | 0.12 Vrms | 2.67 mA | 0.32 mW |
| Aeon Flow Open | 0.04 Vrms | 3.08 mA | 0.12 mW |
| AB-1266 Phi TC | 0.15 Vrms | 3.19 mA | 0.48 mW |
| Heddphone | 0.16 Vrms | 3.81 mA | 0.61 mW |
| HE-500 | 0.17 Vrms | 3.62 mA | 0.61 mW |
| HE-6se | 0.27 Vrms | 5.4 mA | 1.46 mW |
| Susvara | 0.31 Vrms | 5.17 mA | 1.6 mW |
| 100 dB SPL | Voltage Needed | Current Needed | Power Needed |
| Stelia | 0.09 Vrms | 2.57 mA | 0.23 mW |
| Ananda | 0.11 Vrms | 4.4 mA | 0.48 mW |
| Utopia | 0.18 Vrms | 2.25 mA | 0.41 mW |
| RAD-0 | 0.21 Vrms | 7.24 mA | 1.52 mW |
| HE-1000 SE | 0.3 Vrms | 8.57 mA | 2.57 mW |
| Arya | 0.56 Vrms | 13.66 mA | 7.65 mW |
| ZMF Vertie Open | 0.61 Vrms | 2.03 mA | 1.24 mW |
| LCD-4 | 0.63 Vrms | 3.15 mA | 1.98 mW |
| HE-1000 v1 & V2 | 0.59 Vrms | 16.86 mA | 9.95 mW |
| HE-560 | 0.67 Vrms | 14.89 mA | 9.98 mW |
| Aeon Flow Open | 0.2 Vrms | 15.38 mA | 3.08 mW |
| AB-1266 Phi TC | 0.86 Vrms | 18.3 mA | 15.74 mW |
| Heddphone | 0.92 Vrms | 21.9 mA | 20.15 mW |
| HE-500 | 0.97 Vrms | 20.64 mA | 20.02 mW |
| HE-6se | 1.49 Vrms | 29.8 mA | 44.4 mW |
| Susvara | 1.73 Vrms | 28.83 mA | 49.88 mW |
| 110 dB SPL | Voltage Needed | Current Needed | Power Needed |
| Stelia | 0.3 Vrms | 8.57 mA | 2.57 mW |
| Ananda | 0.35 Vrms | 14 mA | 4.9 mW |
| Utopia | 0.56 Vrms | 7 mA | 3.92 mW |
| RAD-0 | 0.68 Vrms | 23.45 mA | 15.94 mW |
| HE-1000 SE | 0.94 Vrms | 26.86 mA | 25.25 mW |
| Arya | 1.76 Vrms | 42.93 mA | 75.55 mW |
| LCD-4 | 2 Vrms | 10 mA | 20 mW |
| HE-1000 v1 & V2 | 1.87 Vrms | 53.43 mA | 99.91 mW |
| ZMF Vertie Open | 1.94 Vrms | 6.47 mA | 12.55 mW |
| HE-560 | 2.12 Vrms | 47.11 mA | 99.88 mW |
| Aeon Flow Open | 0.64 Vrms | 49.23 mA | 31.51 mW |
| AB-1266 Phi TC | 2.73 Vrms | 58.09 mA | 158.57 mW |
| Heddphone | 2.9 Vrms | 69.05 mA | 200.24 mW |
| HE-500 | 3.06 Vrms | 65.11 mA | 199.23 mW |
| HE-6se | 4.73 Vrms | 94.6 mA | 447.46 mW |
| Susvara | 5.49 Vrms | 91.5 mA | 502.34 mW |
Greg
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So what did we learn Susvara is the king of power of the Dynamic and Planar headphones
Yeah but what was it for the original HE-6? Pretty sure that was even lower sensitivity. Also lol I’m sorry but it’s planar rather than planner. I like that though
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And even then, manufacturer’s specs aren’t always to be trusty. Especially HifiMan’s.
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Now you know who I have been dealing with today ; ) I look up the original spec for the HE-6
Early data was ± 3 dB in the old spec I look up. Remember you need this ballpark what size amp you need. It is relative One thing they did say they had a max of 6 watts input on their headphone in the past, so people can be overdriving them
HE-6 was 50 Ohms 83.5 db/mW. I will add it to the master table
| Safe | 85 dB SPL | 0.27 Vrms | 5.4 mA | 1.46 mW |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Moderate | 100 dB SPL | 1.49 Vrms | 29.8 mA | 44.4 mW |
| Fairly Loud | 110 dB SPL | 4.73 Vrms | 94.6 mA | 447.46 mW |
Note they were using the same drivers in HE-6e so it’s the same numbers as the HE-6e. They had variance if you go look at Interfiedelity’s data on HE-1000
Susvara gets the Pink Pig award for power
HE-6 and HE-6se have the same driver? What’s the source for this? Last I looked that up, the se had nothing to do with the original, hmm
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Moon Audio
This text was feed to them by Hifiman looking at it.
“The original HE6 remains a legend in the headphone industry. Due to many requests over the years, HifiMan has updated this classic in a limited-number edition. While the driver remains the same, it features an updated earcup and all-new headband structure to improve on this classic design.”
Improved Comfort and Aesthetics in a Legendary Favorite
“The HifiMan H6se features a newly designed, lighter headband that’s more adjustable for a more natural fit and added comfort during long listening sessions. It features a 10° angle on the 3.5mm headphone connectors, easing the pressure points that strain can straight-angled connectors. This design ensures a solid, reliable, and long-lasting link to the headphones.”
From the Hifiman Manual
“The HIFIMAN HE6se is an open backed headphone with a planar magnetic driver which offers an impressive frequency response range, from 8 Hz to 65 KHz and with all the spectacular dynamic range the old HE6 was renowned for.”
“The HE6se necessitates being used by a narrow range of sources, demanding a recommended 2 watts per channel or more to allow it to achieve its fullest musical potential, only the most capable of headphone amplifiers will do. With its Impedance of 50 Ohms and sensitivity of only 83.5 dB.”
You see the HE-6 and HE-6se are the same on
- Impendence: 50 Ohm,
- Sensitivity: 83.5 dB/mW
- Frequency range 8 Hz to 65 KHz
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Thanks! Had not seen that. I guess it is just that sound impressions have been very different about that model despite the minimal changes supposedly
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Susvara on Phonitor sounds good? What about the Stellia? I’m asking because my BIL managed to convince me it was more than time to upgrade the phone amp I use with phones that aren’t vintage receiver-friendly. The fact that my brother-in-law owns a high-end stereo shop has something to do with this of course. I have tried many but now I\m enjoying the Moon 430HA he loaned me for a few weeks. It’s his demo but since his store is closed due to the pandemic (store part is closed, service is open) he said as a joke he trusted me not to abuse it or else… or else it will cost me $5,000 US, which is twice the price of the Phonitor 2 which is also on my “must experience” list.
The Moon uses swing from its discrete analog circuitry to provide voltage in a pretty generous amount: pushes 8 watts into 50 ohms. I’m assuming it’s 4w per side. It has a separate analog amp in the casing for cross-feed. That amp can be turned off when not needed. Selectable gain is 14db and 20db. I cannot really afford it but it’s nice to play with while its stay lasts. The Phonitor 2 will follow. That one is much more affordable. I certainly not expect the same level of performance but probably more reliable and I just love its retro styling, will fit right in with my vintage receivers unlike the Moon’s ultra-modern allure which seemed out of place.
That’s a tricky one because people who listen to high-end phones that are well designed will likely stick with either depending on their reaction. Myself, I listen to planars quite often but the higher the “rank” the more dynamics I get: the Elear-class of phones are my favorites over even the the HE6se and Susvara and it’s not because they sound bad. Once you have the proper electronics they can sound sublime. But I still prefer the dynamic sound signature, I find it more real-life than planars with their slightly ethereal rendering.
I would say that the Susvara is probably for the time being the best planar phone on the market while dynamics are still ruled in good part by the Focal Utopia for open-backs and the Stellia for closed-backs. French engineering has a reputation for being overly perfectionist or even over-engineered but force is to admit they know damn well what they’re doing at JMLab (Focal’s driver division).
As for the Chinese high-end phones it appear that improvement be the trial and error process is their method. Many affordable models are built so a lot of people buy them and report bugs when they encounter them so HFM just creates the same model with quick fixes ans a new name The Sundara project was initially for a $999 model that sold under a name I forget but too many problems with drivers lead to replacing the drivers with less fancy but more reliable ones, but otherwise no changes were made so that explains you get a “named” model (usually assigned to higher-end products) and the exact same frame and headband as its $3,000 big brother the HE6se (thow the Sudara is single-ended) but as it turned out the Sundara performed better than the HE6se on most amps, thanks to a much more efficient design.
That there is a family air between the HE6se and the Sundara is obvious. With the Susvara HFM carefully avoids visual cues that would link both models in some way but they did nonetheless borrowed a few knick-knacks from their most popular model ever (including the idiocy of having no recesses in the earcup jacks, something I had never seen before on an esoteric phone.). Easy prediction. When the economy wakes up again there will be a slew of Susvara inspired but much more modestly priced models on the HFM store. That company has always sold very high-priced items to their more affluent customers both in China and abroad, only to have very similar models 2 years later that cost a fraction of the price. That’s because it relies on its rich clients to finance research of high-end models but contrary to here patent laws in China can be imposed on whole series based on a model, not just one model. That allows for pretty fancy cans sold at affordable price here since there is little competition for a patented design.
3 Likes
First, before I ramble on, I will go check out the Moon 430 HA , Also I had found B-Stock Phonitor x it was not much more then RME DAC in cost.
What started my journey looking at headphone amps again was Dan Clark Audio Aeon Flow Open, it currently hungry if you want it sound good. After looking at the spec on OpAmp and talking to Tom creater of the HPA-1, it defently was odd duck even low impedence of 13 Ohms it also has lower Sensitivity. You have increased Noise floor at 13 ohms on opAmps, and can quickly exceed the power/current need of single Opamp to get to resonable volume
I do like simplicity and also being able to be mobile, it is from the day when I was flying around the world all the time. I would fly 250,000 to 300,000 miles a year. What does not fit in a messenger bag or backpack and one roller bag or suitor does not come with you. I am now asking how could I get to a simpler experiance.
It had me thinking it would I would love to see reviews from Comunity ( maybe we talk @Resolve into help shepherding with kick-off video ) Start grouping the headphone by voltage, current, and power needs and what is the lowest power ampilifer you need to make them sound good. It is my challenge to the community. Then discuss what you heard. like disliked, etc.
Here is something to think about for equal power 2.57 mW. The Hifiman, HE-1000 SE, will reach 100 dB SPL, and Stelia will reach 110 dB SPL. HE-1000 is no slouch on power efficiency.
Here is the starting group It is the Green Power headphones especially when you compare them to Susvara.
| 85 dB SPL | Voltage Needed | Current Needed | Power Needed |
|---|---|---|---|
| Stelia | 0.02 Vrms | 0.57 mA | 0.01 mW |
| Ananda | 0.02 Vrms | 0.8 mA | 0.02 mW |
| Utopia | 0.03 Vrms | 0.38 mA | 0.01 mW |
| RAD-0 | 0.04 Vrms | 1.38 mA | 0.06 mW |
| HE-1000 SE | 0.05 Vrms | 1.43 mA | 0.07 mW |
This is already very loud, really only needed for the peaks
| 100 dB SPL | Voltage Needed | Current Needed | Power Needed |
|---|---|---|---|
| Stelia | 0.09 Vrms | 2.57 mA | 0.23 mW |
| Ananda | 0.11 Vrms | 4.4 mA | 0.48 mW |
| Utopia | 0.18 Vrms | 2.25 mA | 0.41 mW |
| RAD-0 | 0.21 Vrms | 7.24 mA | 1.52 mW |
| HE-1000 SE | 0.3 Vrms | 8.57 mA | 2.57 mW |
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It’s pretty amazing what Focal achieves with efficiency. I would have bought the Susvara but the amp in my Mytek Brooklyn Bridge is underpowered for it.
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@boxster233. Yes the Focal efficiency really show the level of engineering they put into them, it is pretty amazing
Back to the Susvara program ; )
D90 + GS-X Mini via XLR is a lovely combo with the Susvara Listen to Robert Miles Dreamland.
For the GS-X mini via XLR, I have three DAC’s I can use: D90, Bifrost 2, and ADI-2 fs. Only in a pinch will I use RCA inputs on this AMP. It is XLR in XLR Out Balanced Headphone Amp to get the best out of it. Set up this way it really one of the best amps I have in the stable.
ZMF Pendant via RCA inputs with A/B switch makes it easier to try two differnent DAC at the same time. Need to get back trying out Qutest, D90, Bifrost 2, and the ADI-2 fs. So far, I have been A/B with Susvara Qutest and Bifrost 2.
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Hi
My name is Babak, I’m new here.
Whats your opinion on HE-Adapter for Susvara ? if positive , what amp are you using with it ? ( I have a Rotel a12 sitting around) Any reason to believe it degrades the sound ?
Any consensus on what headphone amp may be more than adequate to make the most of Susvaras ?
I own Phonitor 2, THX 789 , DX7 Pro, RME DAC2, HDV 820.
Thank you
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Hello @babak147 Welcome to the community! Check out New Here? This Is The Spot To Introduce Yourself So people can get to know you! 
@angstorms has created a good compilation of requirements and tests of his owns with his susvara.
This can be of reference for your AMP and AMP Specifications.
The 789 and the DX7 might fall short (See this for 789 reference: HiFiMan Susvara Over-Ear Planar Headphone - Official Thread). I am not too sure about the Phonitor 2, but SPL Phonitor is well regarded here and looking at the specs it might do the job.
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A post was merged into an existing topic: Focal - Official Thread
Hello Babak and welcome to the community. 
When it comes to general-purpose amps and receivers with high-end headphones, it’s usually the 1970’s restores that perform best, due to their wiring which is conducive to output voltage swing “if it can swing the volts” as the saying goes. But that’s not the only factor and considering you also have the Phonitor 2 better leave the Rotel bask in idleness for this purpose waiting for a tuner or some other analog mate. If I were you i’d try all those DACs and pick one the that sounds best to me. @angstorms my be your best bet for pointing a source for the Susvara.
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Really this is an Attenuator based on resistive load. , so it lowers the overall out power of the amp. also a lot of heat. Note this is very hard on an amp. This should help you figure out the output power/volatage/current peaks
The Phonitor 2 has enough power for the Susvara if you move to mid-level gain on dip switches
Input: Speaker Connector
output: 4 pin XLR
Resistors in parallel: 10 Ohm
Resistors in series: 25 Ohm
Size: 16.5 cm * 12.2 cm * 7.5 cm or 6.5 inch * 4.8 inch * 2.9 inch
Weight: 542 g
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