How to compare amps more fairly - my experience

[Lothar_Wolf]

WOW,

somehow I’m happy to have received my naive childlike feeling in relation to music, its performance and presentation.

For me music means that artists / performers express a feeling acoustically and emotionally.

And that’s exactly how I want to perceive this representation, in a way that is as pleasant as possible for me personally.

Personally, I don’t really care whether it was a Bluetooth headset for $ 30 or an :

which I love :

or an extreme high-end system for $ 300,000, the main thing is that the person can enjoy the performance.

I understand the striving for something higher, for perfection.

But the way there and the assessment of what perfection means is as individual as our fingerprint, that also means, where one or the other perceives no tonal difference, new sonic territory opens up for others.

In my eyes, listening to music is not a mathematical process that has to be clinically dissected, but pure enjoyment or " joie de vivre", sometimes also processing existing emotions.

I usually sit in my armchair with a glass of wine, the light is dimmed and I have even closed my eyes to enjoy music, or I’m out and about and listen to music as background sound.

Actually, I rarely find myself in the “operating room” to analyze the music, at best to support a fundamental decision when purchasing the respective device.
But even then, I make my decisions based on personal preferences rather than acoustic perfection.

So, please try to look at the music, its presentation, transmission and the hearing tools offered, less mathematically and head-controlled, but more than what the music should represent:

– EMOTION –

In all facets.

So:

Head: Off;

Belly and Heart: On!

[bhk1004]

This thread just keep giving. Its quite impressive. Bless all of you and happy holidays.

[driftingbunnies]

I appreciate your passion to try to prove your hypothesis but I still see some factors that could play a part in why you might be experiencing no differences between the amps.

1. The fact that you can leave the volume at one setting for Spotify tells me that you’ve left volume normalization which is known to compress the sound. Also, adjusting the volume with your PC rather than the volume knob will also compress the sound which is what Torq alluded to.

2. I’ll mention it again, your DAC is a pretty weak point in your chain. While you believe that the measurements of your DAC are good enough to reveal all details, you’re relying on a $100 DAC to tell you everything on your $1500 headphones. Would you put a prius engine in a porsche?

3. Are you plugging in your headphones to the switcher and not the amps? So wouldn’t you need to consider any affects that switcher might have? You’re introducing more and more variables into the equation no matter how you look at it.

4. You should check out this video. I’m not saying that what they did is 100% correct or that what they said should be relied on but they’re essentially doing what you’re doing but with wires. I won’t spoil the surprise but if you’re willing to accept that your experiment is reliable, I don’t see why their experience wouldn’t have the same merits.

Hi-fi BLIND A/B test - Super Expensive vs Cheap Speaker cable !

[nhatlam96]

@driftingbunnies

The fact that you can leave the volume at one setting for Spotify tells me that you’ve left volume normalization

No, the 50% is just the average value I use on spotify. Volume normalization is off.

@driftingbunnies

you’re relying on a $100 DAC

The chip dac is AKM4493 and well implemented.

@driftingbunnies

So wouldn’t you need to consider any affects that switcher might have?

The switcher has no impact on sound quality.

@driftingbunnies

but with wires

Not in any way comparable to what im doing. Wires… I change the whole amplifier, and not some wires.

Anyways, just try volume matching out for yourself. When the ohm impedance of the amplifiers are both less than 10% of the headphone impedance, then they will sound the same. (talking about solid state amplifiers)

[driftingbunnies]

Sounds good. I hope you’re thoroughly convinced that all your amps sound the same cause I don’t think anyone here is. I’m stepping away as it seems like the time I put into my responses are replied with very little effort or thought. I’m glad you are happy with your conclusion.

[Gordon_Freeman]

My last 2 cents in this discussion:

You REALLY sound like one who has decided that the 2 amps sound the same and no one is to proof you wrong:
-stating that bc DAC chip is the wellknown 4493 chip so the DAC can’t be a bottleneck, is the same as saying, that other elements in a SS DAC doesn’t matter. You sure about that remark?
-saying that adding another element in the chain has no impact is foolish. The aim should be to minimize chain elements to get to the core sound. So you should be looking for removing elements, not finding reasons to keep them.

Being in a channel like this is partly to get good advice and learn more, not to be confirmed in your own view of the audiophile world.

Best of luck with your quest, whatever it is, but consider other peoples high level of knowledge (so obviously not me) and that they perhaps know more than you.

[dRnRcR]

It’s okay to be wrong. As long as you’re happy with what you hear and are enjoying the music.

[nhatlam96]

@driftingbunnies

I hope you’re thoroughly convinced that all your amps sound the same cause I don’t think anyone here is.

Hm, the difference between me and you is, that I used volume matching.

@Gordon_Freeman

stating that bc DAC chip is the wellknown 4493 chip so the DAC can’t be a bottleneck, is the same as saying, that other elements in a SS DAC doesn’t matter. You sure about that remark?

Yes im sure, because the other implements are desgined well.

@Gordon_Freeman

saying that adding another element in the chain has no impact is foolish.

We tested the switcher and there was no impact on sound quality.

[nhatlam96]

The topic is getting out of hand. So lets just say: If you are interested for fairer dac/-amp comparisons, be aware of your bias and volume match (as long as the amp impedance stays below 10% of the headphone impedance).
Edit: Thats actually all I have to say really and should be the quintessence of this topic.

[dRnRcR]

I think the issue is being dismissive of other people input and experiences. Theres no way that anyone here knows everything. If you don’t listen to people’s ideas and experience and push your own opinions as fact it won’t be met with open mindedness. Just my 2 cents

[KneeDeep]

Volume matching in the digital domain so were back on the DAC there. That aside, have you shown in your method any sort of control? As in how do you know you method isn’t flawed. Have you had any amp sound differently in this system, if so why is it not your “negative control”? It really seems like you designed an experiment that only had the outcome of confiming what you already wanted it to. Also when testing with other people, are you phrasing the question “do you hear any difference?” or “do these sound the same?” cause that isn’t really blind, that is framing the question for your test subject.

[bhk1004]

I just learned something today. $100 budget dac out of china using years old chip = well implemented and sonically fully revealing. oh and that adding stuff to chain = no affect to SQ. I am assuming as long as Amir signs off on it.

Just trying to keep learning. thank you.

[Torq]

@nhatlam96

So lets just say: If you are interested for fairer dac/-amp comparisons, be aware of your bias and volume match (as long as the amp impedance stays below 10% of the headphone impedance).

So ACTUALLY volume match then - and don’t write up a “guide” that is the WRONG way to do (in addition to having unnecessary steps that get you nothing).

And also, again, expectation bias works both ways. You haven’t eliminated it here.

The process you describe happens to get your specific amps and headphones with 0.2 db/SPL (pretty poor for a measurement-driven approach). That’s down to blind luck, not measurements or a solid methodology. If you’d used the AEON Flow Closed, instead of the Focal Clear Pro, you’d be off by more than 1 dB/SPL here, which very definitely will be audible (it takes less than that for this type of test).

And if you followed the EXACT same methodology, again with the AEON Flow Closed (which are basically immune to OI-related frequency response shift - since that’s not what this is about), and happened to be using one of several of, say, Topping’s amplifiers, your LEVELS will be off by either 5 or 10 dB/SPL - even though you measured the same voltage from the amplifiers with no load connected.

What a waste of time …

[bpcarb]

I am reminded of this quote.

[MazeFrame]

Most of this discussion has been had elsewhere before.

Your bias is the backfire effect

[PaisleyUnderground]

@nhatlam96

If you are interested for fairer dac/-amp comparisons, be aware of your bias and volume match

It’s clear you put a lot of effort into this, and it also took a lot of courage to post your views and respond to people’s posts, although perhaps we’ve reached the point of agreeing to disagree. Irrespective, it was helpful to me to be reminded that I should be aware of my unconscious bias when comparing equipment, especially if I’m going to make recommendations to other people.

[nhatlam96]

@dRnRcR

I think the issue is being dismissive of other people input and experiences.

If you follor this conversation, I have answered like 75% of all the critiques etc. So I wasnt being dismissive. Im just here to remind of bias and volume matching. If anyone has an interest on it, they can try for themselves.

@KneeDeep

any sort of control?

Yes, I matched the output voltage of the amplifier via multimeter. Then use ab switch to switch between them, no sound differences occured.

@KneeDeep

Also when testing with other people, are you phrasing the question “do you hear any difference?” or “do these sound the same?”

I asked them: “Tell me which one you prefer”. Then after trying: “They are the same lol”

@bhk1004

oh and that adding stuff to chain = no affect to SQ

Well we tested the switcher if it had any impact on SQ and there was none to be found, audibly atleast.

@bhk1004

Just trying to keep learning. thank you.

I must have hurt you. Im getting all those aggressiveness from you guys, could you all stay more calm?

@Torq

If you’d used the AEON Flow Closed, instead of the Focal Clear Pro, you’d be off by more than 1 dB/SPL here, which very definitely will be audible

Yeah, on a second guess. I will not write a guide. The volume match worked for the Focal Clear tho.

@Torq

What a waste of time …

Thats quite dismissve behaviour coming from a moderator. It wasnt a waste of time at all. I learned about volume matching, bias and that RNHP-G103-G111-SP200-V200 sound the same. You should better calm down with your temper guys, just saying.

@PaisleyUnderground

it was helpful to me to be reminded that I should be aware of my unconscious bias when comparing equipment, especially if I’m going to make recommendations to other people.

That was a great and appreciative reaction man. Like @Lothar_Wolf

[dRnRcR]

I’m not going to continue this conversation out of respect for the community. What I will say though is @driftingbunnies gave some very great feedback. He has a lot of experience and I value his knowledge. Not to mention guys like @Torq who have been a huge help to the community.

[bhk1004]

I’m just waiting for the next thread. If you eq correctly all headphones sound the same as well.

[nhatlam96]

You have misunderstood this conversation btw. Read again