Measurements: Charts, Graphs, Software & Methods

I agree with your sentiment, which is why I choose to post here instead of Reddit. So many times people there make posts that are:

  • Off topic
  • State an opinion as fact
  • Over generalize
  • Attack the medium or messenger instead of the message
  • Dismiss another post as without merit without stating why so that there is no way to objectively disagree

However I thought this particular Reddit thread did not have those issues as the OP had done some work aggregating data and attempting to interpret it, had posed their interpretation as a question rather than fact, and the audio engineer that had created the data replied that even he did not recommend using the scores as a ranking system.

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I mean whatā€™s next, performing blind taste tests to prove that you really like Coca Cola more than Pepsi?

I donā€™t want to go off in the weeds, but this reminds me of some research that I think is relevant.

Remember the Pepsi Challenge? Back in the late '70s Pepsi had a series of ads where people did a blind taste test and the majority chose Pepsi over Coke. Years later I read that the test had several issues.

For one, it had a surprising bias built in. The letters of the alphabet that were used to label the samples actually biased peopleā€™s choice in which sample they thought tasted better. We have an innate bias to prefer certain letters (like a, b, c, e, i, o) over others (like q, w, x, y, z). I think they may have even known about this bias when they set up the tests.

Another issue is that people generally prefer a sweeter soda in small samples but generally prefer something less sweet when drinking more. I think we can all relate to this as Iā€™ve found multiple references to certain headphones being taxing over long listening sessions.

Later independent studies showed that many people canā€™t tell the difference in taste between Pepsi and Coke. Iā€™m still a bit skeptical of this one. Iā€™m a devout Coke disciple. My friend who brought this study to my attention decided to give me a blind test to see if I could identify Coke or Pepsi. I correctly identified both samples as Pepsi Max.

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Good points. I will concede that there can be meaningful information there, but you usually have to dig through a massive amount of trash before you find anything worth consuming. Iā€™m not an internet hobo, so Iā€™ll just stay away from digging through the dumpster. :slight_smile:

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You just have to know who to talk to, and it sure ainā€™t the average redditor or some other forumā€™s members that shall not be named. Thatā€™s why I limit my serious learning sessions about headphone measurements to the true masters I have found thus far: @Mad_Economist, oratory1990, Sean Olive, and Jude Mansilla. These people have read and/or written the scientific research and seriously know what they are talking about.

The very first thing the average person needs to do when it comes to learning about headphone measurements and headphone engineering is to assume you are the idiot, and everybody else is smarter than you. Then you continue to do this forever while asking new questions and questioning your own beliefs. Because it doesnā€™t mater if youā€™re an engineer at B&K - even they are continuously learning and experimenting. As soon as you think you know everything there is to know, youā€™ve already lost. Especially when youā€™re a lowly reviewer like I once was, and not an acoustic engineer, haha.

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The sad part is that itā€™s primarily a group of enthusiasts thinking that modern science already has all the answers, and therefore interpret their written words as the ultimate truth.

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Metal571ā€¦

Heyā€¦ Have enjoyed your reviews and recent podcastsā€¦ Appreciate what you have added to the community.

Your comment reminds me of something I learned recently called the Dunning-Krugir Effectā€¦

Where basically people get a little knowledge and overestimate their expertiseā€¦ essentially they are ignorant that they are ignorant.

Humbleness is essential to continued learning - and there is ALWAYS more to learn!

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Iā€™m flattered to be put in with Olive - although thatā€™s really understating Sean Oliveā€™s immense contributions to the field - but just to put this out there: a lot of the research is accessible and not that hard to read. Floyd Tooleā€™s book Sound Reproduction is a veritable font of summary and good citations, and a lot of the really significant papers for headphone purposes can be found free online here and there.

Itā€™s a good idea to take what people online say with a grain of salt, and to vet the sources you trust - but itā€™s also a great idea to read the primary literature yourself!

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This isnā€™t targeted directly at you, but since you raise some questions/counters that I see being raised regarding measurements (that is, individual measurements taken by people, not the concept of using measurements in general) quite a bit, and have some opinions on, you have the poor luck of having to hear my thoughts :stuck_out_tongue:

With the caveat that weā€™re referring to ā€œsufficiently goodā€ measurement systems - which would include anything based on the standards bar IEC-60318-1 couplers, I suppose, as well as a number of ways of doing probe measurements on real ears - the disparity in results between two systems with the same headphone should not be very significant after accounting for difference between the transfer functions of those systems. As an example, I have done measurements of headphones on my HATSā€™ head with both its internal microphones, built into its ear sims, and with a small open canal probe microphone I constructed. If I plot a single headphoneā€™s measurement on both, weā€™ll see a large difference.

Shock and horror, clearly one of these is an unsuitable measurement system, right? Well, maybe not - after all, measurements of SPL in our own ears should certainly correlate to what we hear, and measurements on standard fixtures like my HATS also correlate with perception. How do we bridge the gap, then? Well, itā€™s down to the difference in whatā€™s impacting incoming sound here - my microphone bypasses the canal and takes its measurement at the entrance, so that part of the HRTF is absent, leaving a difference by frequency (made by subtracting one from the other) that looks like this. This looks pretty close to me to the delta between the eardrum and open canal measurements found by HammershĆøi & MĆøller 2008 (HRTFs under three conditions, blocked canal, open canal, and eardrum measurements are found on table II).

So long as this difference is constant with respect to headphones (which, depending on whatā€™s different about the transfer function, may not be the case - /u/oratory1990 on Reddit has written a fair bit about where he perceives acoustic impedance mismatch as misleading in this case), we can compensate for it universally, either by subtraction, or in this case by using the eardrum data for the ear sims and the open canal data for the probe mics. In the case of this particular mic, several headphones show pretty common differences - not complete agreement (there are, after all, other factors influencing FR variation, including simply slightly different placements and environmental noise), but close enough that with a compensation shaped like the delta between the systems for any one headphone, youā€™d get a pretty good prediction of what a headphone that measured a certain way on one measured on the other. And in that case, you have comparability - thatā€™s the standard I set for a useful measurement system, indeed. Not everyone necessarily needs a HATS, so long as the system they use varies in a static way relative to different headphones - Iā€™ve banged on about this here before, but I really do think itā€™s significant; if both systems are ā€œhuman-accurate enoughā€, all you need to know is what the differences are, and of course for standards-compliant professional equipment, these differences will be quite small for ear simulators and pinnae.

In general, this is a worthy consideration ā€œinternallyā€ to a measurement lab - when something looks ā€œstrangeā€ in my measurements, the first step of the process of figuring out whatā€™s up is doing some loopback tests, checking a backup DAC/ADC, etc. Sometimes you leave an EQ on, sometimes a USB device has decided it doesnā€™t like your ports and needs to be power cycled, etc. However unless whoever is doing the measurement simply does not care about what heā€™s measuring, the odds of an aberration induced this way making its way into a published measurement are pretty unlikely bar one case I can think of (noise messing with distortion measurements - a few published reviews have had that issueā€¦). Barring defect or malfunction, the chain used to measure headphones simply shouldnā€™t substantially impact their frequency response - even a high Zout will only cause ā€œbigā€ differences in some truly outlier cases. If the FR looks like noise, thatā€™s definitely a good sign that somethingā€™s gone wrong, but subtler issues areā€¦niche, at minimum.

This is actually what made me respond here - Iā€™ve seen this concern, that operator error is a significant factor, raised increasingly frequently lately, and Iā€™m really torn on it. There are certainly cases where operator knowledge/experience is impactful on the results - for example, Iā€™m now more consistent at getting a tight coupling of headphones to my 4128 than I was when I first got it; as another, Iā€™ve known folks who were newer to measurements who didnā€™t calibrate SPL when testing distortion, making the measurementsā€¦not terribly handy.

But for the biggest factors we hear and care about, itā€™s heavily frequency response, and barring deliberate malfeasance, itā€™s not really that easy for an operator to mess up how a circumaural headphone measures for frequency response. You can place them a bit askew on the test fixture, sure, and you can have a leak between the pads and the head, but the former isnā€™t necessarily wrong (after all, how many of us are carefully centering our headphones on our pinna?), and the latter is pretty obvious when looking at the data (and also not necessarily wrong, depending on the amount of leak - some of us wear glasses!).

Itā€™s worth thinking about operator effects, donā€™t get me wrongā€¦but itā€™s important not to let that be a brush we allow to sweep away any data that we donā€™t intuitively agree with! There are areas where the measurement engineerā€™s impacts may make themselves known (particularly the relative extremes of frequency), and when things look a bit eccentric there, itā€™s worth pondering if that might be whyā€¦but barring sabotage, no operator error is going to turn an HD800 into a GS2000e, if you take my meaning :smile:

Thereā€™sā€¦nuance to this one. I really, really recommend reading at least Toole or Oliveā€™s summaries of Oliveā€™s work in this area - and better yet some of the source papers - but while a measurement doesnā€™t necessarily allow me to predict with perfect certainty how one individual will hear a headphone, the variations we see arenā€™t as extreme as some people make them out to be. Itā€™s true that ā€œhow close a headphone is to the 2017 Harman targetā€ isnā€™t a perfect prediction of how you or I will like it relative to another headphoneā€¦but preferences cluster pretty close to something thatā€™s close to it.

Olive, Welti, & Khonsaripour 2019 sliced up the variation in preferences a bit, and found that there were subsets of people who preferred relatively different headphones on average - which, you know, aligns with all of our experience, of course - but even among these subgroups there were pretty strong agreements about which headphones sounded better and which ones sounded worse. Older work has shown similar things with giving people control of equalizers - you see different adjustments from different individualsā€¦but they donā€™t pull that far apart.

Mind you, the distance is still enough for things like my own differences with the Harman targetā€™s high-frequency response (I prefer diffuse field, unaltered or with a slight shelf down) to IMO fit within the research, so Iā€™d also be cautious of anyone who thinks he can predict exactly what you, personally, will think of a headphone from its frequency responseā€¦but I donā€™t see that claim made very often, and I do sometimes see people pushing back against the idea that, even for a specific individual, we can make some quite well-informed guesses about what FR features will not sound so good, which is a very reasonable claim.

Itā€™s certainly possible that such a thing could be done - some would argue that some audio review publications do this to smooth over measured issues, as an example - but I think itā€™s key to separate what the measurements say and what we say about the measurements here. There are really only two ways to massage what the measurements say, themselves - choosing what measurements to conduct based on the sort of result you want to show, which will be fairly clear about what you like and dislike if you give a harder set of trials to some gear than others, or outright tampering with the data.

The latter is quite trivial to do - I can mess up the FR or distortion of any gear I measure essentially arbitrarily - but, well, thereā€™s a reason that people make jokes about people lying on the internet. You can draw your own graphs in paint then digitize them with webplotdigitizer if that floats your goat, but Iā€™ve never seen anyone doing that, and unless something is truly inexplicable otherwise, or the person seems like a bad faith actor, Iā€™m generally very skeptical of fraudulent data as an explanation.

As far as what we say about the measurements, of course, itā€™s a whole different ballgame. I like pointing to three reviews of the Objective2 as a neat picture of this, as an example: NwAvGuyā€™s own, Tom Christiansen of Neurochrome, and Amirm of AudioScienceReview. If thereā€™s a technical disagreement between their data, Iā€™ve missed it or forgotten it since last reading (so it canā€™t have been that big), but the three make quite different narratives from the same product and much data about the same things. NwAvGuy was, naturally, quite keen on his creation, whereas Tom and Amir both arenā€™t as impressed with its performance - even though it is, indeed, the same performance, analyzed through pretty similar lenses.

Is the O2 a cheap, audibly transparent headphone amplifier that you can do yourself as a fun project? A marginally performing, mid-to-low power headamp due to its less-than-SOTA distortion performance and limited output current? Yes to both, but what story we tell depends on what we care about - and that, of course, is subjective. I donā€™t recommend taking other peopleā€™s narrative evaluations of measurements for much more than colour, generally - a really key reason that I point people back to the primary lit; measurements are useful when you can interpret them, but if youā€™re relying on someone elseā€™s analysis, you could get a similar result just from a summary.

This said, the O2 reviews, IMO, highlight that when we see narratives diverging, itā€™s as often because people writing said narratives have different standards as it is because theyā€™re trying to plump for different gear. Amir and Tom are very consistent about what they look for in good gear, and itā€™s different from what NwAvGuy did - their differing impressions of the same product start from a different criteria for what ā€œgoodā€ is, rather than their definition of acceptability being changed to move where the product being reviewed fell. So long as this is the case, if you know what someone is looking for (and most of these folks will tell you quite up-front), IMO thereā€™s no harm at all in that kind of fluff - hell, itā€™s fun to read!

Anyway, sorry to ramble at you, Iā€™m just feeling a bit like the caveats to measurements need their own caveats stated these days!

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This would be a very serious charge to level, because itā€™s really pretty much the same as outright calling the people in question liars - if people are going around putting out manipulated data, thatā€™s a really profoundly destructive deception, and itā€™s important to discuss where we suspect that may be happeningā€¦but itā€™s also important to not start with a presumption of guilt. Iā€™m not aware of that kind of manipulation being done, in this hobby, in the period where Iā€™ve kept track of these things - but I have seen a lot of misunderstandings that were taken to be one side lying to the other, and that never goes anywhere productive.

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interesting readā€¦ it is lateā€¦ so Iā€™ll try and properly respond tomorrow at some pointā€¦
but, Iā€™ll leave it with, you kind of validate some of what I was stating in that people have agendas and biases and maybe the biggest lie isnā€™t the measurements but the people pushing the story behind the measurementsā€¦

also, I think @jkpenrose comment referencing this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunningā€“Kruger_effect

is appropriate, along with Clique/group thinkingā€¦ so yes I think the measurements should be fineā€¦it is more how one pushes themā€¦ or places them against their curve/ or what specific parameters they are using that needs to be statedā€¦ also if they have a clean chain with no interference.

Yes, the squiggle will generally match up but with things like smoothing and other factors under the creatorā€™s control, there is still a lot that can be either maliciously or with good intentā€¦be misleading to some degreeā€¦

I think the better thing to solve this ā€œproblemā€ is educating more people in ā€œlaymanā€™sā€ terms on what all these things are and how they affect or donā€™t affect what one is looking at. Scientific papers and write-ups are not always the easiest to digest :wink:

I do appreciate the links and Iā€™ll look into them when I have timeā€¦ but, at this point, I still stand by my comments regarding this. I do respect what you have said here though and think you have the right of itā€¦ but, I also think you are giving the benefit of the doubt to a fairly large groupā€¦

I think lack of understanding something, but still pushing it is questionableā€¦and think the Kruger effect is well ā€¦ appropriate in this instance regarding amateur/hobbyist in any field/hobbyā€¦ I do not pretend to be infallibleā€¦ I will happily defer to those more knowledgable than myself and happily stand corrected on anything I say, after all, we are continuously learningā€¦but I will question, always questionā€¦ :wink:

also, I think most people are not in it to mislead or be maliciousā€¦ but, inexperience and lack of understanding in anything that is being deployed to educate can be a dangerous thing.

haā€¦ I need to go to bedā€¦long day tomorrowā€¦ also, just to be clear, I like this conversation and hope I am not coming off as offensive, as it is late and I am tiredā€¦ I also think discourse is important and that this is a good thread to learn from and see different perspectivesā€¦

Cheers

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Exactly, and well said. Iā€™m solidly in the DarthPool camp. (Camp purple?) I appreciate all that @Mad_Economist and Mr Olive do and have done, but other people are just people. They have biases, preferences and agendas, and not near enough of them can get past that to understand or learn, or be objective about objective things.

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I think this was the video in question. Iā€™m not sure if thatā€™s exactly whatā€™s going on here, but it does raise the question of how data gets represented. Even if they arenā€™t outright lying or manipulating data, there may be cases where itā€™s understood how a general audience will receive and react to the data, and itā€™s communicated in a way the best highlights the positive aspects rather than the negative ones. This might not be outright lying, but in some ways itā€™s taking advantage of the fact that the uninitiated reader/viewer will take the information in a very specific way.

And in some ways itā€™s understandable. Iā€™ve seen this even when sharing some of the preliminary test measurements Iā€™ve done with friends. I worry about their reactions to the measurement because theyā€™re not seeing the influence of different positioning, or recognizing the impact of certain dips/peaks. I worry that sometimes all people see is a deviation and conclude that ā€œitā€™s crapā€, when really it might sound great.

In some ways hard scrutinizing these measurements based on how readers think things should look may contribute to the desire on the part of the reviewer/publisher to put the best foot forward - especially when armed with the knowledge of what will get a favorable reaction. To that end, I worry that the interplay between the readershipā€™s expectation of good vs bad indicators in headphone measurements becomes all the more salient in the publishing of them - where conclusions end up being ā€œthis measures like shitā€ rather than asking ā€œwhat does this mean for how this sounds?ā€

So I wonder what the best way forward is for this stuff, and how best to communicate the data in ways that are appropriate, given the context of existing expectations.

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Well saidā€¦ I think this is an important topicā€¦ also a very divisive topic and it needs to be navigated with open mindednessā€¦

@Mad_Economist I hope you keep contributing as well, as your experience and knowledge is a great resource for those ā€œwillingā€ to learn more =) I especially appreciate your links to great documentation on the subject. It is a fascinating topic, especially when you consider all the factors going into it! Looking forward to more of your thoughts on this!

I think the best way to help remove some of the issues is finding a way to make measurements easy to understandā€¦ maybe a series of talks and reviews examining this?

Iā€™ll ping you later about some ideasšŸ˜ƒ

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Great discussion here, as usual. :slight_smile:

For me in the IEM world, one of the biggest challenges is trying to explain to people that there is an inherent resonance in the coupler that I use (RA0045 clone) and that you canā€™t take the measurement past 8KHz with any real confidence. I had disclaimers in my older reviews but I removed them, and maybe I should just have a boiler plate disclaimer in my watermark haha.

Thereā€™s plenty of people out there that use home DIY rigs and try to compare them to ones that meet IEC-standards as well, which is a bit frustrating. I think some of the diy rigs should put disclaimers on their measurements, but I know many do not.

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If I werenā€™t keen to give large groups the benefit of the doubt, I wouldnā€™t be here talking to yā€™all :smile: Bear in mind, the ā€œmeasurements firstā€ folks are ā€œmy tribeā€ in this stuff, even though I think thereā€™s plenty to criticize on our side of the aisle.

We can always come to the conclusion that we placed too much faith in other peopleā€™s willingness to participate productively, but weā€™re not likely to have productive interactions if we assume bad faith at the start, you know? Iā€™d rather gamble with my time, because itā€™s paid off many times before - sometimes someone your intuition says isnā€™t interested in serious discussion just had a different frame of reference to you, and can bring you novel ideas (and good conversation!).

In practical terms, this is Oliveā€™s project as I understand it - the statistical models built around the Harman research are designed to take in data, and spit out a statistic with a reasonable correlation with ā€œsounds goodā€.

Of course, this is a very broad brush to paint with, but there comes a point where you have to trade off accessibility to folks who donā€™t wanna go into the lit for nuance in what youā€™re looking at - a good argument for both Harman-style preference scoring and giving people the data to look at for themselves, IMO.

So this, I think, is where we get into a kind of fundamental disagreement. I donā€™t think itā€™s in any respect a lie to make a set of subjective value or preference comments alongside data. You canā€™t be objective about your preferences - including for performance in objectively measurable domains - beyond being honest about them, and I donā€™t think thereā€™s a lack of people being open about what parameters they want to see to get their hearts pumping.

The complaint as Iā€™m understanding it is that people are putting data alongside their subjective views about that data (e.g. ā€œthis looks good to meā€, ā€œIā€™m not impressed with thisā€, and the general narrative of review), and that this is perceived to break from ā€œobjectivityā€, but I think thatā€™s a strawman of what people are trying to do with data. You can make scientifically-grounded, ā€œobjectiveā€ statements regarding measurements (e.g. this headphone has a higher Harman preference score than that one, so it will probably be preferred), but this doesnā€™t have to be the end of your analysis and commentary. As a designer of headphones, I have a lot of subjective views on what measured behaviors are preferable, and Iā€™d reckon that pretty much anyone who spends a while doing measurements will end up in the same boat.

And itā€™s for a pretty simple reason: ultimately, ā€œX is better than Y in my opinionā€ is always gonna be a statement based on subjective valuations of different factors, and thatā€™s true whether those factors are numbers off an Audio-Precision or things I hear listening to Aja for the millionth time. This is part of why I linked NwAvGuy and Tom Christiansen, actually, because they go in such interestingly opposite directions with amplifier nonlinearities - NwAvGuy was fundamentally concerned with getting below a threshold of audible nonlinearity at a sufficient output level, that was the goal of the O2, and meeting those standards left him enthused with his end result. Tom, on the other hand, wants to see performance that gets closer to the state of the art - power beyond the question that it will be enough, noise and distortion not merely below audible thresholds but pushing the limits of our measurement systems, etc - and so heā€™s not that impressed by ā€œa floor wax and a dessert toppingā€.

And this is an interesting contrast! I think itā€™s quite good for the community when reviewers have different values and preferences, in fact, because it increases the odds that you can find someone whoā€™s closer to what you reckon the balance of importance is. And I suspect that, when dealing with purely subjective/listening-based reviews, weā€™d all agree on this - but for some reason, Iā€™ve seen a lot of folks act like you canā€™t have personal preferences regarding what you see on a scope, and that confuses me. Nobody that Iā€™m aware of is saying that car reviewers shouldnā€™t have preferences among numbers like break horse power and power to weight - which are objectively defined, but their value to an individual is, of course, subjective.

Perhaps thereā€™s a framing disconnect - the people in the ā€œmeasurement sphereā€ who Iā€™m aware of generally wouldnā€™t contest that the verbiage we put alongside our plots is subjective commentary, reflecting our opinions and values. Theyā€™re subjective opinions about objectively measurable phenomenaā€™s importance, but theyā€™re subjective and personal nonetheless.

And there are, of course, some people who assert that performing better by some figure of merit makes one product ā€œobjectively betterā€ - they definitely are not helping this dialogue, and I think itā€™s good when we all (politely) push back against this sort of statement. Itā€™s reasonable to say that a measurement shows one product objectively outperforming another in one area - but while an F1 car may be faster off the line, Iā€™m not sure Iā€™d take it grocery shopping (what is it with objective-subjective dialogue and car metaphors? I blame NwAvGuy).

So, uh, TL;DR: I donā€™t think itā€™s misleading or dishonest to have a narrative or opinion alongside measurements - and, indeed, I think that so long as we understand that these are an individualā€™s personal assessments, it can be a value add. There are some objective reviewers whose ā€œpersonal value scaleā€ aligns better with mine than others, so reading their assessment can save me a bit of time squinting at data points.

Iā€™m just going to single this one out to pick on, but weā€™re all just people. We all have some ill-considered takes at times, and sometimes people you wouldnā€™t expect to come up with great contributions. Being charitable in our reading of people and being willing to ask questions when things donā€™t quite make sense to us lets us all have a much more productive dialogue - and avoid a lot of the fracturing-into-increasingly-tiny-groupthink-spaces tendency this community kind of trends towardsā€¦

Edit:

If you would like more input, Iā€™d be happy to throw in my two cents (for whatever they are worth) as well, just hit me up. IMO subjective interpretation of measurements boils down to the pareto principle, however - the commanding majority of whatā€™s subjectible and of interest we can glean from a bit of comparing frequency response plots, but the vast majority of all measurement stuff only is meaningful in edge cases or for little details. Talk about diminishing returns!

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In that video, Amos references Bobā€™s ā€œLies, Damn Lies, and USB DAC Technical Measurementsā€ presentation, I believe. Itā€™s a neat little demonstration of how we can play with presentation in ways that make technically accurate data not reflective of how two products compare apples-to-apples - but this isnā€™t a problem Iā€™ve seen widespread in the community, to be frank. Itā€™s a nifty demonstration of playing with measurement parameters with plausible deniability, but at that level of disingenuousness, Iā€™m not sure that thereā€™s really much to be gained versus just outright fabricating nonlinearities for one product - either way, all it takes is someone else with the two products in question doing an apples-to-apples comparison to make your results look wrong (or, on the contrary, all it takes to make an apples-to-apples comparison look wrong is someone fiddling with their data - a case for grains of salt in general, but again, I just havenā€™t seen this happening).

Iā€™m banging my pet drum a bit incessantly here, but I do think part of it starts from differentiating our statements of fact and our statements of values/preference/what have you - and we can do this on both the reader and writer side. ā€œthis response is unevenā€ is a factual statement, ā€œheadphones with this kind of response tend to sound poor to meā€ is a subjective assessment. Both of these are useful bits of information for a reviewer to convey, IMO - itā€™s sharing how the subjective experience ties to the data in your own experience, and thatā€™s helpful. Itā€™s one of the things Tyll always did pretty well in my opinion. But it might be good to have some sort ofā€¦I donā€™t know, boilerplate or blog post or mission statement or something differentiating how we feel about the data and the data - both of which are potentially valuable things for readers, of course.

That said, I think that these things are pretty clear if we think about them for a bit - when we say a measurement is ā€œbadā€, itā€™s pretty clear weā€™re making a subjective judgement, and if folks take a moment to ask themselves ā€œdo I think that my preferences and priorities align with the person saying this?ā€, that should let us take things with the appropriate grains of salt.

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Some sites (e.g. GoldenEars) have put ā€œerror bandsā€ (real or for visual purposes) around their measurements in bands of uncertainty. Iā€™m not sure that this kind of visual shorthand is that useful for people who arenā€™t already aware of the issues in question, but at least it makes a differentiation clear.

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@Mad_Economist,

Appreciate your extensive posting and thoughtful comments here.

Curious as to your take on what is going on when something doesnā€™t sound like it measures? Or at least what one would expect it to sound like based on experience with measurements of other headphones?

For example, zmf Verite shows a drop off notch, in FR around 3K, @torq and @resolve have reported that it doesnā€™t sound the way they expect from their experienceā€¦

Do you think this is an example of other compensatory responses in the FR?

Do you think measurements can lead to an expectation bias in what we hear?

In other words, should we listen first and then look at measurements or look at measurements and then listen? Obviously measurements are usually more accessible than listening opportunitiesā€¦

How much/how accurately , in your experience, do measurements translate into what the ā€˜wholeā€™ of what hear and do you think it is possible to know what something sounds like just from measurements?

If not, what do you think we are missing in what we measure? If anything?

Personally, I believe we can have expectation biases both ways - which, once we have them, affects our perception and therefore our experience.

Iā€™m thinking here mostly of headphones, which have a more complex response than amps or dacs, but even with amps and dacs people report they experience differences even with very similar measurements.

Curious as to your take on this?

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Thatā€™s the real challenge. No matter how you approach it, there will always be those who will continue to interpret any information in whatever way theyā€™re most comfortable with. Canā€™t really expect you or anyone else to complement every measurement with a speech emphasizing on the subjectivity and our inability to truly know anything with absolute certainty.

Looking at Oratoryā€™s EQ PDFā€™s though (example PDF), what heā€™s doing is quite smart. His FR graphs highlight the 50Hz - 10kHz region visually, by fading out whatā€™s out of that range.

And what might also be something worth thinking about, although perhaps not easy to pull off, is to ask manufacturers for their driver/unit variance tolerance criteria. If manufacturers are willing to publish those criteria, it can provide some useful insight into unit variance anomalies. Might not be easy to also account for differences in their measurement setups and yours, Iā€™m not educated in that field.

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Not able to fully reply @Mad_Economist but what about ā€¦Tubes? Or how like mentioned above when something sounds better/worse than measurements suggest?

Iā€™ll write a proper response later, need to get the daughter and have family timeā€¦

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