Now it’s showing Lossless signal path, and not MQA
Swapping the Dragonfly back in, it goes to MQA…
Another swap and the MQA is back… with the xDSD.
Gamma Ray Interference?
Note there is an audible difference - in volume - higher with MQA. The rest is subtle, but there. I think the Stax are a good choice to listen for the sonic differences.
You want to make sure you create specific “devices” (Audio Zone) so that Roon can talk directly to each of the DACs in question. Once you’ve done that, and they’re properly configured, you shouldn’t see any more issues with MQA periodically not working.
As a general rule, the only time you want to use the “System Output” with Roon is if you’re actually using the host-computer’s speakers or headphone output. When you have a dedicated DAC, then you should always create a device/audio zone for it and then select that as your “Audio Zone” in Roon when you want to use it.
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That is exactly what I expected.
I think there is hope that this may change in Bluetooth version 5.0. A2DP https://www.bluetooth.org/DocMan/handlers/DownloadDoc.ashx?doc_id=303201&_ga=2.79886487.181554813.1540251009-402207398.1531070576
describes the specification for audio streaming, and it supports at least 44.1 and 48 kHz streaming, with suggested support for higher bitrates. I am not technical enough to be certain that I am reading it correctly, but I don’t see that it would not support a non-lossy streaming transport mechanism.
Unfortunately there is a lot more to this than what sample rates are supported by Bluetooth AD2P CODECs. Even 128 kbps MP3 can do 44.1 kHz sample rates. There are just FAR fewer effective bits per sample getting encoded than the constant 16-bit requirement for a lossless stream - which is required for MQA.
A much more important factor is the reliable data-rate, which due to the constantly changing bandwidth available on any Bluetooth connection (due to myriad factors including external interference, implementation efficiency, relative antenna alignment, etc.) means that even the 700 kbps or so required for a FLAC-like lossless encoding cannot be guaranteed over Bluetooth (even 5.02).
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I would have expected that over typical shorter ranges that Bluetooth 5 would permit data rates significantly higher than 700 kbps. What about the use of a dual connection? Maybe we’re getting beyond MQA playback and support, and this might be better moved to Wireless headphones or similar.
In theory, in perfect conditions, it can do a theoretical 2 Mbps. In real world use, and with real-world devices, even with them sitting right next to each other, you generally won’t get that. And what you can get will change constantly.
That’s before we get into a discussion about CODECs.
LDAC, the best available Bluetooth CODEC has quality/reliability options … intended to deal with this exact problem.
Earlier this week, TIDAL announced MQA support on Apple mobile devices. I just happened along the information, it certainly wasn’t splashy.
I suspect this is because the iPhone hardware still does not support hi-res audio without some help from external hardware. I understand that even if the first unfold can be done on your iPhone, the standard headphone adapter re-samples everything down to no better than CD quality.
However, I did find that my usual “lightning to USB adapters” AKA Camera Cards 2 and 3, coupled to the iFi xDSD DAC did reliably provide high-quality MQA decoding. Far more reliably than the xDSD with my Android phablet and UAPP, OTG cable to DAC. That’s hit or miss, but it is reliable with the Dragonfly.
The above Android implementation is also a kludge, and you can have more than one stream operating without intending to, as revealed in the upper right hand corner drop-down on Android 8, “sticky fingers”.
Tidal does not provide any explanation that I could find in the current updated iOS app. If you look through the app, you will find, if you have the right subscription, a new MASTER quality choice for wi-fi, cell data, or both. After selecting MASTER quality, it says it begins after the next song change. I may have tried to jump the gun, so I did a power off then on and it was fine.
You also have, as on the desktop app, a view of MQA mastered albums. While seriously inconvenient on the desktop, where at least you can see 25 or so albums at a time, it is ridiculously inadequate on the iphone, where you can scroll through 4 at a time.
TIDAL has been promising some sort of MQA search, and they REALLY need not only MQA, but an advanced search that lets you specify resolution and perhaps album version. If you look, for example at the Rolling Stones’ “Their Satanic Majesties’ Request” album on ROON, you will see that TIDAL has several versions, including original CD, remixes, anniversary, and MQA. Curiously, I did not find the dual format CD/SACD version that I happen to own in addition to vinyl. (Silly me, I never sprung for an SACD player).
Anyway, I’m glad that I can now get MQA from TIDAL on my everyday iPhone, popping my DFB/Jitterbug and a camera adapter into my pocket, along with those real nice Cheap KZ ZSN IEMs or my usual 1More Triple Drivers. Of course that disables phone functions…
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…how did I miss this thread to start with??? Getting sloppy. but thanks for bringing it back up and giving me a chance to find more highly useful info.
There are two main MQA threads. This is the more specific one. The other is “General MQA Discussion” which is a bit more . . . philosophical.* **
*All proprietary formats are evil.
** Even when they’re really good, see first comment.
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We could probably end the thread with this.
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Vic actually commented on one of my Reddit posts I had showing the NiBL playing in MQA mode, and shared this video with me. Figured I would post it here =) I am using Qobuz and Spotify premium now so I no longer get that delicious Magenta light 
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I just received a ifi iDSD BL that seems to be working fine (Dell XPS WIndows 10 laptop host). I also just signed onto Tidal High Quality (currently on 30 day free trial) account. I was trying to do some casual exploring of MQA. I followed the (not so professional) instructions from AMR on Youtube regarding setting up my Windows 10 Tidal app for MQA (although I never saw a ‘Playthrough’ option as referenced in the video)
I found some MQA content on Tidal and it played just fine. I was expecting to see a Magenta color on my iDSD but I saw nothing but green. So I found a couple of ‘stated to be’ MQA files that are downloadable for test (or whatever) purposes, and I played them through MusicBee. Green LED on the iDSD and MusicBee (and Windows Explorer) considers these files to be .flac files.
I know that the MQA format is built such that if ‘non MQA player’ plays these files they work fine viewed as just PCM files and can be played without an issue (somewhat lower quality). But it is like my Windows system is blocking the “MQA-ness” of these files. OTOH, both MusicBee and Windows Explorer sees one of these files as being flac and both 44.1 khz and 514k (at the same time-how can this be???). So somebody or something (I assume it is me) would appear to be really confused about all this.
I thought that I would ask here before I spent any more time here. This simply isn’t what I expected and seems wrong to me and I think that I am badly confused about something in this MQA space. Thanks.
dave
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First make sure you have the MQA-enabled firmware installed on the iFi unit. I’m not sure what they do today, but when I reviewed the unit, the 8x DSD firmware was installed by default, which doesn’t support MQA playback. The MQA firmware enabled MQA playback but limits you to 4x DSD replay.
In the TIDAL application, under “Settings”:
- First, make sure “Streaming Audio Quality” is set to “Master”.
Then under “Settings” -> “Sound” - > “Sound Output”:
-
Make sure you’ve selected the iFi DAC as the output (rather than making it the default system output and selecting that).
-
Then click “More Settings” and ensure that you have “Use Exclusive Mode” enabled “Force Volume” enabled and “Passthrough MQA” DISABLED.
Yes, it seems counterintuitive to have to disable MQA passthrough, but the iFi unit needs TIDAL to do the first unfold of the MQA file, which is what leaving “Passthrough MQA” disabled does (if you enable it, it doesn’t do the first unfold - which is a setting you only use with a DAC that can do full MQA decoding - which isn’t the iFi unit).
Anything that changes the MQA data stream will result in the file not playing as MQA. Which means no software volume control (hence “forcing” max volume in the TIDAL app), no software EQ, and no playing a mixed, MQA/non-MQA stream (which is why you want Exclusive mode on).
Another note … while MQA files are packaged as .FLAC files when you stream or download them, if your music player software does not support MQA Core Decoding (“the first unfold”), then you will not be able to play them as MQA files with the iFi DAC.
The only players that I am sure support MQA Core Decoding are the native TIDAL client, Roon and Audirvana+. There may be others, but I’ve not tested them.
ALL music players that can operate in bit-perfect mode should be able to play MQA files to a DAC that supports “Full MQA Decoding” (i.e. the DAC hardware also does the first unfold). But, again, that’s not the iFi stuff except, fi they’ve finished the firmware, the Pro iDSD.
Note that with your music player software doing the first-unfold, and the DAC doing the rest, the end result is FULL MQA decoding … it’s just a different path to get there.
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Torq, thanks again for the very helpful response. This filled in a # of blanks in my mind.
I did successfully enable MQA via the Tidal app. What the ifi youtube video referred to as the ‘Gear’ selection is now a unhighlighted ‘more settings’ test string that leads to stuff like the Playthrough, etc options. From there I got MQA working.
And per your input I would judge that MusicBee simply isn’t a ‘fully MQA ready app’.
dave
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Anybody got Masters to work with their iPhone yet?
Yep. See my note above at about post 27
I have camera adapter. I must have MQA capable dac to do it? On my computer I get the 96k master. When I use iPhone with camera adapter to my SMSL SU-8, I do not get 96k but only 44.1k.
I really don’t know.
** Idle speculation follows:**
I would think that an MQA DAC would be what you need, but I distrust what I see in complex apps, especially in the first weeks they’re out. I have only tried with the DFB and the xDSD, both MQA capable, not with my older TEAC DAC.
If your DAC is not MQA capable, then you would have to hope that
a) the iOS App is performing the first unfold (only, can’t do better) and
b) your camera card + non-MQA DAC is allowing you to extract higher resolution sound than the lightning choke point.
------ and I’d wonder
c) what quality sound is coming out of the headphone jack if I had one?
This I do know:
- without the camera-card/DAC combo you can’t get anything higher than 44.1K out, ever
- With that combo, I have been able to play high-res non-MQA files at correct resolution
- With camera card + MQA capable DAC, I was able to get the MAGENTA lights showing MQA using the Tidal Master. I do not recall having to set the app for the app to do first unfold, and the DAC to render (like you do with ROON and the desktop app)
- The iOS app is different than the Android App, which will do the first unfold on the Android device (at least under Android 8 (“Dubious Marmelade”) which I am using. So lessons learned with the Android app may not apply.
@Torq and others, your experience?
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When I tried it, using the Apple Lightning to USB 3.0 Adapter and the AudioQuest DragonFly Red, and the latest TIDAL application, I was able to get MQA playback from my iPhone XS (magenta light on the DFR) with no special gyrations.
I just fired it up using the same adapter into a Chord Hugo 2, and that shows 96 kHz (etc.) for MQA content and 44.1 kHz (etc.) for non-MQA files, which is also what I would expect. Again, no special configuration needed, as long as the file is MQA and the “Master” streaming option is selected.
The TIDAL application on the iPhone doesn’t have much in the way of configuration. If the Streaming setting is set to “Master”, which is must be for MQA files to play (as MQA) it appears to always do the first-unfold for you unless the DAC advertises that it can do full MQA-decoding. There is no setting to change like there is with the desktop application.
If the SMSL SU-8 isn’t showing a higher bit-rate then I would wager it is device-specific issue. Not all USB-DACs correctly advertise their capabilities, and in this case I don’t know what the SMSL unit does - nor how it interacts with the necessary Lightning to USB adapter.
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