I think between this and the Atrium, you’ll have a good idea of what to expect! I hear the Atrium as having unusually good forward depth, and the 800S as having the “widest” (left to right) stage I’ve ever heard.
Like others here, I had to delve into tubes in order to both get a semi-reasonable tonality from the 800S as well as the soundstage I wanted from my other headphones. I’m using a Pendant SE for the record, with about as maxed out NOS tube upgrades as you can get. I don’t mess with EQ (Mac user), but with the right tube roll, I’ve been plenty satisfied listening to rock on the HD800S.
I sometimes wonder about this. Maybe it’s the physical distance that partially determines the FR quirks Resolve and others are mentioning. Every time I’ve tried pads on headphones that have increased the distance between my ears and the drivers, I’ve gotten more (and more uneven) treble with a less “natural” timbre, along with more stage.
Oh no I get that other people care about it. I had indicated that In my opinion it’s not worth chasing given the use condition of stereo headphones and what constitutes a generally ‘good’ response, but I 100% acknowledge that this is a desirable effect to many.
Well… see what you prefer. This is where EQ can really help you out. Maybe you find you end up preferring the spaciousness enhancing effect, as others in this thread have noted. What constitutes a good FR generally doesn’t mean it’ll be universally desired.
I’m curious about this too. Interesting you would mention it, as there was recently a mention of this technique being used for the new Hellblade game. There was a portion in the Microsoft Developer_Direct that described the process at the effect, though I haven’t had a chance to fully watch it yet - just watched a video that described it. Still, might be worth checking out.
This is very encouraging! And the pendant looks awesome - I’ll bet with the top of the line tubes it’s an absolute monster.
Very fair point. There’s really no substitute for hearing it and seeing if it agrees with my brain. I’m sure I’ve set up one heck of an expectation bias, but I shall try to approach these new cans with as much of an open mind as possible. Headphones are definitely more fun trying to research and optimize than speakers IMHO, so I will also seek to enjoy the journey without excessive focus on the destination
Dude! No. It’s absolutely NOT “just plain distance.” You are undermining your own argument in mentioning binaural stuff too. Perceived soundstage can be affected at most points during the music production-recording-playback sequence.
Examples: Listen to these two version of the creaky Old West railroad song On The Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe.
Everything that touches the musical content might affect perceived soundstage:
The FR, technology, and placement of the microphone (it’s a reverse speaker)
1a. Production decisions to record in a small, large, echo-prone room, etc.
The potential of the recording media (old-school wax records; tapes; digital)
Production decisions to run a track through a spatializer (analog or digital; see early mono-to-fake stereo albums such as 1960s Beach Boys)
Preamp systems (i.e., analog or DSP) that artificially spatialize a track
4a. Equalizers that increase mid-high frequencies to better define space
Amplifiers that generate harmonics and/or increase perceived space (i.e., tubes)
Headphone design, driver placement, and distance from the ears
Headphone pad choice
There are many ways to skin a cat and 50 ways to leave your lover.
We agree. I’m only pointing out that distance is, or can be a factor. Not that it’s the only factor. Of course distance also can affect FR. My point about plain distance, was that in most of the technical discussion in the posts above distance had not been brought up.
For sure. Or listen to the Beatles remixes of Rubber Soul or Revolver.
I too have been obsessed with the idea of having spacious and expansive staging, without sacrificing bass and lushness. I’ve spent time with HD800s, and for the last month I’ve been listening to Caldera daily along with the Meze Elite. They are both incredible, full of life and intricate detail, with vibrant low-end. But for this topic of discussion I would actually vote for the Elite above all. I feel it has the best combination of tonal quality and expansive imaging. I really wanted to like the Hd800s, but for me it doesn’t come close to these other two (so the difference in price is justified).
And as far as test tracks for staging I wanted to recommend field recordings (look up “sleep sounds of nature” on Tidal/Spotify). I find these amazing for testing the imaging of headphones (and they really help with anxiety too )
“Neutral” is a very debatable term, but assuming you mean well balanced between bass, mids, & treble, with no one area standing out noticeably above the others, then neutral with amazing ‘soundstage’ is a tough nut to crack. Arya & HD800S are famous for their soundstage, but I wouldn’t call either one ‘neutral’. ZMF Caldera might fit the bill - it sort of balances ‘neutrality’ with soundstage/width. Not quite as much soundstage/width as Arya or HD800S, but noticeably more balanced tonality.
For what it’s worth, I’ve found as I’ve progressed through my head-fi journey that I value “soundstage” less the more I learn & experience. In the beginning, I thought soundstage was the thing I most wanted to chase - being “wow’ed” by that width effect. But with experience I’ve come to find that there are trade-offs for that width effect that I’m just not willing to make. Most notably, dynamic slam/engagement and balanced “neutral” tonality. For dynamic slam/engagement, the music is either slamming you in the head or it is pushed away from you - it cannot be both. And as noted by many people in this thread, wide soundstage seems to be a product of an intentional imbalance in tonality.
Depth is a better dragon to chase, IMO. For that, you’ll find many neutral/balanced TOTL headphones that trade blows.
Thanks for the recommendations! I have been wondering about the Caldera, but I’ll have to wait a little while before considering a pair of those. I’ll take a look at those test tracks as well.
I believe we are broadly aligned on this. As I started to get into the headphone space recently, I didn’t even pay attention at all to soundstage, just optimizing for tonality and dynamics / other technicalities. As I have tried a few different models that I felt I would be interested in, I just started to notice that they are all described as fairly intimate (HD 600 and Clear) or not terribly impressive in soundstage (LCD-X 2021). I definitely think they are getting the most important aspects right for me, particularly with HD 600 and Clear for most of my favorite genres.
I’d like to see what is possible so that I can try and figure out whether I should give this any consideration at all when choosing headphones in the future. It really seems that expansiveness is going to be at odds with what I would prefer, which is presence, timbre, a natural feeling to the sound, and avoidance of being overly bright, harsh, or especially sibilant. I don’t think I’ll end up being willing to trade much in terms of frequency response to get soundstage improvement.
I am curious about the concept of depth as you see it. I am guessing that falls somewhere in the realm of detail retrieval of overlapping sounds in the soundstage?
I’m also realizing that slam / macrodynamics are pretty important to me. The bass of the Clear is way more exciting to me than the LCD-X even though the latter extends quite a bit lower. I also grabbed a Celestee because I am going to end up divorced if I don’t start using closed-back at least some of the time . This led me to the surprising observation that I could keep the macrodynamics and add bass extension with this closed-back dynamic. It has a tiny bit of unnaturalness to the timbre, but still in this area, it’s better to my ear than the LCD-X, and it is intimate to my ear, but not as much so as the HD 600, even though it is a closed back.
I have also been surprised to discover that I like the HD 600 for most listening better than the 6XX, which I would have guessed I would prefer more because it leans slightly warmer than more detailed, but the muddying of the lower mids / upper bass is a real drawback for those. I can immediately hear that, at least to my ear, the soundstage is larger with the 6XX, but I think the tonality keeps me going back to the 600, and will probably result in a very lightly used pair of 6XX winding up on EBay soon.
All of this is to say that exploring these concepts is leading me to identify my preferences and priorities, and it is fascinating. Evidently I do care about definition / detail at some level, with the HD 600 preference over 6XX, but I think dynamics end up being more important than detail or perfection in frequency response. I don’t think I would have guessed either of those things without trying a bunch of different options. I’m curious if you think any of the headphones that I mentioned above would be good examples of depth, or, if not, what you would recommend considering to check it out?
Also, I suppose with neutral, I really mean not bright nor warm (so I suppose that comes down to FR), but if I had to choose, I would go slightly warm. It may also be the case that because I’m listening most of the time on tubes, I’m getting a lot of topspin on tonal density and warmth anyway, so I guess some of these preferences might shift if using a different amp…
Thanks for weighing in, and I’m definitely curious about checking out some shining examples of depth!
The HSA-1b* was the best I’d heard the SR-1a at that price point, and quite a way beyond it.
To get something I found more enjoyable I wound up pairing them with a Chord Utlima 5, though the Ultima 6 and Etude were not that far behind. Those amplifiers are also better on a technical level (THD+N, slew-rate, etc.).
There are other options now … depending on your existing headphone/speaker amplifier, the TI-1b or TI-1c may be better still. Though for some odd reason they do not seem to sell those separately anymore (maybe they will via phone).
*Now discontinued, you’d either have to buy used or get the HSA-1c from SAEQ … who made the originals anyway.
To my ears, the Susvara sounds much “wider” than the HE6, and it’s a big part of the reason I’ll reach for the Susvara instead of the HE6. (Also, comfort, smoother, perfection, etc, etc)
I suspect you know those two headphones well, would you say that the soundstage diferences between them are due to that FR relationship between mids/treble, or psychoacoustic effects due to driver distance/cup differences?
Trying to get smarter about this stuff, thanks for helping.
FWIW, the HE1000 Stealth arrived at my house today. It has more than enough depth, tone, imaging, etc. to make me smile. I am absolutely liquidating my Caldera, Empyrean 2, Elite, all the higher-priced cans I’ve been auditioning. They are beautiful, and amazing, and detailed, but I don’t see the point when I am absolutely rocking out on these Hifimans for $1200! I’d rather spend on a better amp.
But I am still gonna try out that new Raal headphone if I somehow get the chance. Because ribbons**
)
but it has 3x more ribbons!!!