Thanks for your post, can’t wait to try it out 
!
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Hey thanks! Hope you find them neat as well. Also, there was an important thing I forgot to mention. These are very source dependent. They need a source with good power, or they won’t be powered correctly. Treble will sound very muted and the earphones will be quiet. Use a decent dongle or DAP.
Just wondering, do you guys generally find that most planar magnetic earphones/headphones require sources with a generous amount of power? Does this mean that generally on the go listening isn’t too feasible?
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I don’t know about planar earphones, but full-size planar cans have been getting much more efficient. Most brands have planar stuff that can be driven properly with dongles or USB DAC/amps, and some straight out of a phone.
A bigger issue for on-the-go listening is a relatively limited array of closed-back planar headphones. Ironically, the one I see used the most in that scenario, the AEON Flow Closed, while not needing much voltage swing, does like lots of current to wake it up.
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From my personal experience:
iSine - Cipher cable powers it fine. Most DAPs I’ve owned have had no issues with it. Seems quite efficient.
ME1 - Also very efficient. Worked on most of my DAPs and ES100.
Tin P1 - Not efficient at all. Maxing out DAPs. Phones may not have enough power.
RHA CL2 - Efficient. Worked fine with all devices.
Audeze Sine - over-ear/on-ear – Not very efficient. Uses way more power than I would have expected for a portable headphone
Most of my over-ear planars also required quite a bit of power to drive and sound their peak best.
All of that said, prior to getting newer IEMs, I used my ME1 with my budget-tier DAPs and mid-tier DAPs without any problems.
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see my comments in the LCDi3 thread,
the Audeze BT cipher cable w/i3s had no where near enough power to get to even high vol levels, using the cipher cable via lightning, yes no problem to ‘power’ it to decent(but not hearing damaging levels like a Hugo2) level, but I still did not care for the sound sig on these. I’d have to spend some time to find a EQ/DSP setup that sounded passable. Any number of other earphones I’d rather have, just about any.
BlockquoteiSine - Cipher cable powers it fine.
Blockquote
Question is how much power is enough to make them ‘sing’, like I can run a HD600 from a TV 3.5mm jack and get pretty good sound for listening to boring news programs. Need plenty of more power to make the HD600 give what it can give on music, with that much more power.
@DLabs, do you have any consideration for putting out a hybrid, something along the lines of oBravo’s Cupid? then again, fiendish audiophiles that have ‘Champagne tastes on a beer budget’, want oBravo to come out with a low priced DD + AMT tweeter design…and make it so efficient that it could be crammed into a true wireless earbuds design.
I see so many complaints& specualtion about how Sony left out LDAC on the revised 1000MX3s, oh that LDAC processing must use so much power, it’s so inefficient that you can’t put it into a TWS. Sure, sure…I talked to Mark from Audeze, when they were demo’in the new LDC24 & asked him the capacity of the BT cable,cause it can’t drive the i3’s worth a darn…he didn’t know. But he told me my ideas were backwards, everyone wants smaller sized iem’s, especially planar designs. & then he mentioned how next yr BT devices will get upwards of 30hrs runtime. That has nothing to do with codecs, and everything to do with SoC that Qualcomm is (and others, like Huawei’s Free ver 3 buds, with proprietary chip similar to Apple’s W1/H1 BT chip (don’t forget the Apple/Beats have Cirrus DAC’s inside those BT earbuds)…all of this is down to ever increasing efficiency demanded by smartphones, resulting in every more powerful SoC that is more efficient/uses less power than the chips they are replacing. btw, Sony’s neckband LDAC capable wireless have a 160mah battery, that powers both l & rt channels, this would be equivalent to 80ma/per side on TWS, JBL’s wired BT set has 85mah/side: https://www.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dwc465e5fa/pdfs/JBL_Reflect_Mini2_Spec_Sheet_English.pdf
ie more than enough to run LDAC, so Sony could have done it? Most are using 50-60mah batteries to keep size/weight down to minimum. Some are now using 30mah batteries, bc they can get away with those, bc of more efficeint SoC chips from Qualcomm…has nothing to do with BT5.0 or even BT5.1
But say a smaller Chinese made iem, can get away with audiophile eccentricities> $5k+ iem’s? a decade ago every iem was <$1k, just a few over the head HP’s were $1k+. Might look like a monster with plugs/cylinders coming out of your ears. And while I understand that Li-poly cells that are not removable are smaller/take less space, as has happened in the smartphone market of non-replaceable batteries. But we don’t need super slim iem’s, look at those multi-driver iem’s…bulk city. point of reference, the $10K obravo, or other top AMT tweeters are using 16mm drivers, a 120ma button cell rechargeable Li-ion by Varta is 16.1mm diameter, so less than the case diamentions on those.
My idea, was that you use button cells, must be someway to have them magnetically ‘clip’ on, like Apple’s now removed ‘mag-safe’ charging cable. A little thicker, sure, but say you have a clip on battery of larger diameter(since it would not have to fit inside of a battery ‘compartment’) & say you have a optional ‘turbo s’ mode, or if you like Tesla ludicrous mode, where you slap on another 5.4mm thick button cell to double the voltage from 3.7 to 7.2v. So you have slimmer single button cell, but less power, and if you need/want ti the full effect from having 7.2v on hand to drive the internal next gen 5nm process TSMC sourced Qualcomm SoC BT/DAC/ADC/amp of a TWS. Give me an obravo style iem w/AMT tweeter, have a ‘turbo’ mode that only runs for say an 1hr or 2, then you just swap out extra already charged batteries and keep on playing! How about an Empire Ears LX, basshead monster, truely wireless, using 2xstacked 120ma batteries/side…freaky 480mah doing 1C discharge current rates for some earthquake bass?
@DLabs, how much power are you working on/with? Apple’s lightning to 3.5mm adapter @$9, puts out `37mwatts…can’t find the link to that, but some usb/Bt dac’s <$100 output about the same, not enough to drive a Sine, if you follow Audeze’s recommendations. Audeze might be using a more powerful DAC/amp in their Cipher cables, from the iphone lighting port, but their BT cable certainly can’t output that much, or they would be much louder than they are now.
not as small as some options mentioned, but ‘small’ enough to run off a smartphone+ balanced , not that I think it’s needed in many cases, LCD24s running off a Chord Hugo2 single-end driven, plenty of power on tap for bass slam that crushes LCDi3’s like a bug :): Review and Measurements of E1DA 9038S BAL Portable DAC & Amp | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
NB, is there a preview option with this forum software, I see something to the side/below as I’m waiting for the post to ‘take’ & blockquote in preview shows “block quote”…not what I expect?
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Hi @mulberry_madness! I think the power draw from planar equipment has been quite an interesting topic for discussion and it has been something that we have been concerned with for quite awhile. The pairing with a good source would be a daunting task for people who are just getting into this and it is for this reason we have been experimenting with the idea of including a balanced dac/amplifier out of the box for use with the unit. I think this is not entirely a new idea as you have rightfully pointed out, some manufacturers like Audeze have already done this with the cypher lightning cable.
We might come up with a hybrid planar magnetic in the future, however we feel that this takes away the true joy of listening to planars. In the case of the cupids, the planars are used as tweeter units, which I feel does not fully embody the experience (such as the soundstage) that planar drivers can give. For our planars, we are trying a different approach, which is to make the drivers as efficient as we can. We are trying some 3D fabrication techniques now to make our planar membranes have greater output whilst keeping power draw to the minimum. We believe that this is another way for us to move forward with planar technology rather than just working on putting pure power behind the drivers. Unfortunately these 3D techniques are taking us some time to perfect, which is why we have fallen behind on our launch dates thus far…
Your idea of replaceable batteries does sound interesting. We dont see that with many of the TWS or bluetooth earbuds becuase I think many manufactuers are conerned with water/sweat resistance. However, I think many audiophiles might not care too much about that, so it is really something to consider.
We have succeeded in making our own balanced USB-C DAC/amplifier and this could be the direction that planars are heading in the future due to the power requirements. The issue is that apple controls the lightning specifications quite tightly, which is why I think those lighting DACs which can output high power are unlikely to be “officially certified”. In this cause, going bluetooth might be the way in the future if we are talking about compatibility with apple devices. Interesting link about the E1DA Balanced portable DAC/amp! It is quite amazing that it outputs 37 mw at such a small size. For our DAC we are trying to hit the 50 mw range, however we are still doing adjustments and redesigns, so don’t quote me on that ^^".
I am curious, for yourself (or anyone else having planar equipment), where do you usually listen to them? Are you constrained to use them only at home because of this power issue?
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Forgot about this one, balanced for sure, just not exactly high output power @113mw, when the $9 Apple lightning dongle(and this iBasso doesn’t show iOS support) does ~37mw, can’t find the link where they tested it. Output voltage is higher than Apple’s bc itn’s balanced?
http://www.ibasso.com/cp_xq_dy.php?id=8745#page19
^ibasso’s website doesn’t play nice for me, one pg specs here:
https://penonaudio.com/ibasso-dc01.html
Neither of these could drive the most efficient AMT driver along with big DD in oBravo’s higher end lines, but perhaps an efficient planar only design—just as long as it doesn’t sound like Audeze iSine iem’s, or certainly an efficient DD + planar should be possible.
iDSD claimed on this head-fi thread, ES has better control of jitter than other DAC’s, I don’t’ know it I understand the truths on that.
JBL’s Reflect Mini 2 BT earphones have spec’d 85mah hr Li-ion batteries, no doubt Varta 1454s, 14.1mm diameter. Sony’s new TWS 1000MX3’s have been opened and show Varta 12.1mm diameter 60mah button cells. Ie. if Sony wanted they could have designed a slightly bigger case and easily included LDAC support…assuming a power efficient SoC.
How do we know, well iMore’s 1DD + 2BA neckband BT has a 160mah battery total + LDAC support, a TWS earbud is certainly a possibily…just have to wait for someone to do it, technology is there now. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33022902657.html
Lmao about this posters contention the mechanical size + cost(li=poly squares are what 50cents in China, whereas Varta cells can be had for around $5, but quantity discount would apply to larger manufacturers, Apple could get Varta cells for around a $1-2USD, I bet. Let the excuses prevail for why it’s not possible for economy of scale + bulk mechanical design, etc, etc.; and then some smaller co can do it! Of course he’s referring to $99 ES100, not a high-end audiophile designed TWS earbud…but I’m sure he’d make same arguments, just like Audeze’s Mark made to me when I told him I want bigger battery full TWS version of iSine, at least LCDi4, which is ridiculously marked up for huge profit margins.
Huawei’s FreeBud3’s are using 7nm EUV process by TSMC of Taiwan to get smaller SoC chip, more power efficient that has nothing to do with BT5.0 or BT5.1, so next gen Qualcomm (2020 or 2021?) should likewise be more power efficient bc of that new SoC shrinking die size. https://www.gizchina.com/2019/09/08/huawei-kirin-a1-interpretation-the-worlds-first-bluetooth-5-1-wearable-chip/
“Kirin A1 chip is smaller than the recently released Kirin 990 and Apple’s H1 chip. Its performance index is 30% higher than Apple’s AirPods but the power consumption is reduced by 50%. The package size is 95% of the AirPods H1 wireless chip.”
I don’t need LDAC for my old ears, give me AAC + 2x/per side removable 120mah 16.1mm button cells + 16mm DD + AMT for highs, Frankenstein version of obravo’s high-end iems for <$1000, with high current Tesla Ludicrous mode, or if you’re a Porsche fan, Taycan all-electric ‘Turbo S’, like iPhone 12 Max Pro+ Turbo SE, lol …yes!!!
I don’t have time to search out the latest Qualcomm 5100 series data pdf , if even they specify clocks & jitter or ibasso’s dongle that uses “AK4493 is a desktop level stereo DAC chip” , but 5100 series has 24bit + something higher frequency support, statements by iFi Audio @post#2124, are not current, referencing older CSR pre-2018 line, or future:
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Afternoon everyone.
At times, stirring the pot is kinda fun, so let me throw the Monolith M300’s into the ring. 28mm transducer, 22ohms, very lightweight, somewhat cheap build, MMCX, annoying (and fragile) ear hooks and a cable that resembles that vacuum power cable that Grado makes. The ear tips are garbage and the initial listening will leave you wondering why you bought them in the first place and the guy who suggested them must love 1980’s rack stereo systems. Well…
I bought them after watching a certain YouTube review and they were compared to the Isine 10’s and 20’s and not in a good way. There were a few redeeming qualities that peaked my interest such as imaging and sound stage and the price (below $100), so I bought them directly from Monoprice when they were available. My first impressions that they have amazing depth and they were very open (I love Grados, so this was a plus), but it seemed that they were tuned by someone who previously worked at Bose (no highs, no lows, sounds like you are listening inside a cardboard box). The fragile earhooks, cheap eartips and the heavy MMCX cable made me almost regret my purchase.
Then I decided to see if I could get past the many flaws. My source is a Huawei Mate Book tablet (great battery life, good amplification for easy to drive headphones/IEM’s and a processor that easily handles Hiby Music, and that’s where things changed. I purchased memory foam tips, picked up a TRN 8 core MMCX cable that weighs 1/3 of the stock cable and began to tweak the settings in Hiby Music. I’m also trying to determine if I really need the Topping NX1s.
Under the user profile where the EQ settings are at is the MSEB section. Within in about 10 minutes of playing with slides, I removed the “Bose box” sound and improved (my opinion) the lacking crisp upper end and made me wish I knew about these app settings sooner.
Are these IEM’s for everyone? I really doubt it. Much like Grados, they are not heavy bass friendly. The M300’s, once adjusted, love Classical and Jazz. Very wide sound stage and very pleasing depth work extremely well with classical live recordings. I could sit hours listening to Dvorak without wanting to take them off. When I want a metal/house IEM, I put on my KZ ZS10 Pro’s.
You can now find them a but cheaper and if you want a project, might I suggest the M300’s. Perfect? No. But for below $120 (new cable and tips a must), they might be worth looking in to.
Take care all.
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Yeah, I’m revivin’ this topic. Take that, @discobot.
I just read the comments on the Moondrop Stellaris. And I’ve read the comments on the 7hz Timeless and on a bunch of other planar IEMs.
But I listen to and own iSine 20s and LCDi3 from Audeze, and I know that a few folks here have the LCDi4.
So how do these newcomer planar IEMs stack up against the Audeze? I don’t think any of them are shooting for LCDi4 territory, but certainly some are competing with the LCDi3 and possibly Euclid. (Which may be the only closed-back planar IEM that I’m aware of).
So jump in here. Or don’t you consider the Audeze because the 30mm diaphragm is big and doesn’t even try to fit in your ear. Seems to me most of the others don’t either.
LATER EDIT: I wrote this before 
@Audiophool pointed out to me the Audeze B stock sale and successfully tempted me to pull the trigger on the LCDi4 at an unheard-of discount. Probably Audeze has something newer and better and even more flagship up it’s sleeve.
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Hi! To find out what I can do, say @discobot display help.
So I own a bunch of nicer open-back cans, and I’m just getting into IEMs. I own the Moondrop Kato, Dunu Titan S, and 7 Hz Timeless. I love the Timeless - they are effortlessly transparent. But my comparator set is pretty low on the expensiveness totem pole. Excited to hear what others with better sets think.
I really like my Audeze LCDi3 - so much that I bought the i4. And I liked the used iSINE 20 I had so much that I bought the i3. And if you look in deals, the i3 is ALSO on a good sale.
Comfort is important to me in any IEM. And I know I can wear the Audeze series for extended times. I’d like to hear some of the newer ones - I feel like I’m addicted to the grandparent lEM line. Worse, in general I don’t care for IEMs…
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I am really interested on your comparison against the LCD-i3 (I own one), please let us know your thoughts when you get the LCD-i4.
Since I still have the iSINE 20 also, I’ll do all 3. I’ve been trying to get others to do this, but the problem is you’ll only get my impression. I don’t have or use measurements. What’s interesting are the comments that the Cipher cable - even the wired one - doesn’t fully do the job. Some of the comments are old, and they may have used the old Cipher cable also.
I did notice an improvement using the FiiO K9 Pro ESS DAC/AMP and the ROON Audeze (LCDi4) settings with the standard cable. I’m having a silver balanced cable made by HART, so I should be able to test in balanced mode also. By improvement, I mean the usual tighter bass and more control. The DAC is better too, but soundstage is so good with the Audeze form factor I didn’t think to make comparisons. ROON does have iSINE 10 and 20 settings but no LCDi3 EQ. Was suggested I use the i4 EQ.
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Thank you, I don’t really care much about measurements, I don’t use the Cipher cable, my main usage is desktop setting (DAC and AMP), I also use Roon and EQ settings (and Audeze settings) with the LCD-i3, I am mainly interested on the sound quality difference, like how big of the jump is from the LCD-i3 to the LCD-i4, and yes, Audeze itself also recommends to use LCD-i4 settings for LCD-i3 (they are compatible).
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I think I’ve mentioned this on the forum somewhere before but could be mistaken…
I only have the iSine LX, so not one of the higher end Audeze models, but my comparisons with the newer planar models (those that I have tried from the latest bunch of releases) is that the newer sets are all better tuned but are not as detailed as the iSine. With EQ, I still feel that the iSine is a step above.
This can be solved by me sending you my address 
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I wanted to add some notes on a comparison I did recently. I consider these the “mostly good” planar IEMs, and while I’m sure there are many more, I figured these are a good reference point to compare other planar IEMs to in the future.
All of these are measured with the GRAS RA0402 coupler which cannot be compared to the RA0045 equivalent aliexpress couplers seen commonly, as this one does not have the coupler resonance around 8khz.
I’ve used a smoothed version of the Thieaudio Oracle MKI FR as my neutral reference point here and will continue to do so until there’s better research done on the B&K 5128, as Harman IE2019 is no longer suitable.
Tangzu Zetian Wu:
This one surprised me as it didn’t have any hype surrounding it when it got sent to me by HiFiGo to evaluate, but it probably should. One of the most well-tuned if not the most well-tuned of the bunch. It’s just not quite as incisive as the Timeless and some of the top ones for the intangible qualities. But really solid.
Raptgo Hook-X:
This one is the most straightforward recommendation with one exception, and it’s that it’s an open-back design. But for tuning and technicalities it’s near the top for me.
7hz Timeless:
The one that kicked it off. I like the timeless, but it’s got a few quirks that actually make me go for some of the other ones, most significantly of which is that I find the fit a bit awkward and it doesn’t stay in my ears all that well. But I think for most people this should still be the top pick and it’s probably the safest blind buy.
7hz Dioko (correct filters)
Good value for technical performance but its treble peak causes some sibilance making it tough to use without EQ for me. But still good value.
LETSHOUER S12 and Z12:
These are the more colored/flavoured sounding IEMS. Both have a bit of honk and shout, but with strong, solid bass and crisp treble. For a more esoteric version of ‘good’, these are a lot of fun, but they’re both also a bit on the blunted side for trailing ends of tones.
Dunu Talos:
In planar only mode, it’s… decent. But not great. I found myself needing to EQ it a bit to add some bass and tone down the upper mids and treble a touch - only 3 filters - and when I did it actually sounded fantastic. It’s also up at the top for technical performance in my mind. So with that in mind this is one I could see myself using as the comfort is good too.
The weird thing though on this one is that the planar + BA mode turns it into an absolute treble cannon, which in my view is a bit of a wasted opportunity as that mode is completely unusable for me.
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I had a similar experience, especially with the stock tips it comes with. Once I found the right ones, though, the Timeless stayed in place. Solid IEM to my ears!
I hope Moondrop takes another stab at a planar IEM and knocks it out of the park this time.
It has a lot of hype on alternative forums but I agree that maybe not as much as other models got. Maybe, to a certain extent, people have got a little tired of the planar hype and are looking to hype a new driver config?
Did you get to try this with the IE600 foam tips?
It would be interesting to see what differences you can measure between the two tips as I took some and on paper there is very little difference.
Yet to the ear (mine at least) it seems to smooth those upper mids/lower treble just enough for it to sound great.
I need to try some of the available tuning filters and see if I can get the same results using them with silicone tips.
(Also, I must get around to reviewing this set!).
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