Care to share that lineup?
OK, Iāll try to remember whatās here:
Senn HE-90
Stax Omega II, Lambda Signature
Sony WH-1000rII
Senn HD1 OEBT
Sony R10 (stock and balanced)
Grado RS1 (stock and balanced)
Focal Utopia
AKG K-1000
Denon AH-D5000, D7000
Fostex TH-6xx
ZMF Vibro
Kennerton Vali
HiFiMan 4xx (or something like that)
Grado HF2
PSB M4U
UE 10 Pro (custom)
Etymotics ER-4s
Noble Kaiser 10
Jecklin Float
Ergo AMT 2
Yamaha YH-1000
Senn HD-580, 600, 650, 6xx
M&J MB2
I think thatās most of them.
Itās definitely an acceptance thing. My First Hi-Fi pair of cans that I purchased was a ZMF Eikon. I felt bat shit spending that much on headphones but after some use, It felt totally worth it. I think you can get your moneyās worth in the $800-1,000 range but there is some diminishing returns.
2 Likes
I certainly didnāt mean to imply I wouldnāt want the best or couldnāt hear a difference; just that diminishing returns kick in quick especially if on a budget (so Iāve learned to enjoy what I can afford)!
@Hirsch I did like those AKG K-1000s in your list when I heard them many years ago, but had to settle for the K340s at the time.
Ok, so the Mitchell and Johnson MJ2 beats them all or is at the bottom of the list? You said āHowever, it knocked several more expensive headphones right out of my listening lineup.ā I was interested to learn which ones the M & J MB2 knocked out of your listening lineup.
As with everything, there are diminishing returns with price tiers, especially in the $1k+ bracket. Even then, price isnāt necessarily a direct correlation of quality. It has more to do with development/marketing costs, marketplace pricing, and of course on the whim pricing decisions companies make.
Everything really comes down to whatās financially feasible for you, and what youāre comfortable with spending on this hobby. Some people are totally content with a pair of HD600s while others are always swapping out different flagships.
2 Likes
My 2Ā¢: I donāt want to hear what happens after $350 (HiFiMan HE560).
My Etymotic E4s were $300, Sennheiser HD 580 (now HD 600, if you know what I mean) are available new for $150, and the aforementioned HE560 all push my hearing to its limits. I love the sound from all of these, depending on the music and source.
If I were to put lust-cans on my head, say Mr. Speakers Voce pushed by an electrostatic happy amp, I know Iād be amazed. That is why I am not tempted. (Well, not TOO tempted) Iām a happy idiot at $350 on a $250 amp, why make myself unhappy?
I guess if audio is a quest, I travel until I find happy and stop looking until the next time something in my chain needs to be replaced.
4 Likes
Iām with you. My feeling about your, perhaps rhetorical, question: source gear is of lesser importance than the interface. (or on-your-face) Some cans require something more specific to work well but, for the most part, diminishing returns really come into play with amps faster than headphones.
In TV we look at the end of the chain to build the system. In my case the end of the chain is 64 year old male ears that have worked in military environments for 26 years. So I would next match the interface to the ear. My imagination tells me I would like to hear the difference at $10k but my experience tells me the psychoacoustic impact is more based upon the psycho and less the acoustic.
Anyway, I see severe diminishing returns before one hits the $1k mark for cans.
3 Likes
I just came across this interesting article.
The perception in the market is that audio products are getting more and more expensive but the value proposition is dwindling. Would you agree with that or is the product itself becoming more expensive to make and market?
Now letās explore this subject with some real-life numbers. If we go all the way back to 2005 when Sennheiser announced HD650 at US$549, the headphone was widely accepted as the benchmark headphone at that time. 13 years later at 2018, Focal Utopia, Abyss Ab1266, and HiFiman Susvara, from $3999 to $5999, are the summit of current headphones market. Are they over-priced when compare to HD650 back in 2005? Yes, if you are counting inflation factor only. However, if we put these summit headphones at somewhere between level 8 to 9, then the HD650 probably is somewhere between level 5-6 relatively. If we take 13 years of inflation plus moving up 3 levels towards the top of the high-end audio ladder, I think 10 times price difference is not completely unjustified.
Once you cross a very fluid line that changes with each person, the cost of headphones are caught up in the domino effect as you try and balance out the entire system; better headphones need a better amp and DAC, along with power isolation, etc. Somewhere in that $300-400 range is where most people will start looking at secondary components that are needed to fully support and maximize the benefits of jumping to the next level of headphones. Perhaps we need to look closer at the price break point where āyouā are satisfied, without having to get additional gear. We always tease ourselves as we look on the other side of the fence and wonderā¦just how much better are the HD800ās as compared to the 650ās, and will I be able to hear the difference??? Nothing is more disappointing then dropping major money on gear, only to have it truly fail to live up to our expectations. I love my DT880ās especially when combined with my iFi nano; am i tempted by the 650ās?? a bit as they seem different in their presentations. Would I buy HiFI HE560ās???, not at this point.
1 Like
To me they have gotten way out of hand. Iām not saying high dollar arenāt better sounding. It seems how much price to performance ratio make them worth buying. I donāt think I would buy high dollar headphone if I had money to burn. Iāve been down that road with stereo equipment. Itās amazing to see it in retrospect how much I have spent to eke out that last level of sonic bliss. Looking back now I know I bought more equipment to show off and impress than I did for enjoyment of listening to music. Today I enjoy listening to music and enjoying the setup I have doing it.
1 Like
Way back when they were relatively HI-FI I got a killer deal on a pair of HD 600ās and once I got hooked I happily bought a second pair for much more so I could have one pair for home and one for my officeā¦
I have a higher discretionary but diet for headphones these days, but my HD 600ās are still making me happy when I use them
I tried out so me relatively high end cables and did blind testing and I couldnāt tell any differenceā¦
As long as youāve got decent cables save your money for better electronics
3 Likes
Excellent suggestion
1 Like
I remember a famous double blind test of speaker cables. One were the current FOTD, the other wereā¦ Steel coat hanger wires. 50% loved the hangers.
4 Likes
I love the coat hanger storyā¦
At one point I did a blind test between a $150 headroom amp and a $1,400 amp with senn hd 600ās and I couldnāt tell the difference
3 Likes
Thatās all that matters. Its music to your ears at a huge discount. More expensive is many time not what matters. Trust your ears as always.
1 Like
Even if I could afford the HE 1 set upā¦I think I would consider some of the other high-end stuff that is soo much less in price. Then spend the difference in ca$h on other hybrid Tube amps and other Quality headphones.
Geeā¦wellā¦a fella can still dream a little baby!
1 Like
I just want to throw another point in if I may. I lean towards iemās rather than full size headphones. I do have some decent full size gear but I tend to listen more to iemās. My point is this, the cost of mid tier to high end iemās seems to be not much less than the full size headphones. Looking at materials costs alone you wouldnāt expect that iemās would cost any where near their full size brethren. I guess it could be down to iemās being harder to manufacture or could be R&D costs are much more. But thinking about it, it could be a factor of all of the above.
Then again it maybe down to lower production runs. I donāt know. I just canāt find an answer as to why TOTL iemās are almost as expensive as TOTL full size headphones.
Any insights or ideas? I am no expert and I know that there are much better informed people about than me. Please could you let me know as I would be very interested to find out.
-Paul-
1 Like
I have definitely thought about headphones vs IEMs a lot lately and I consulted Oratory1990 from the headphones subreddit. I believe you know who he is, but for those that donāt he is a professional acoustic engineer that works for a private company in Europe which tests and builds custom transducers for bigger headphone/speaker companies that contract them. His job is to measure and analyze headphone and IEMs every day. So he definitely knows the R&D side of this hobby. Let me share with you my correspondence with him here:
Me:
Hey man, Iāve been venturing more into the IEM world lately, not so much because I prefer IEMs but moreso to understand that side of the hobby and figure out their relationship to headphones. So I have started to dabble in cheap Chi-fi IEMs as well as I just picked up a used Andromeda. Since I know you work on the development side I was wondering if you could shed some light on a few questions/thoughts I have had? (Note: I am only considering universal IEMs, not customs since I know the shelling process is important when considering price differences)
Bill of materials - How different are the costs of parts for headphones vs IEMs? The thing that bothers me is that my Chi-fi KZ IEM has a metal shell modeled exactly like Andromeda and comparing their build side-by-side they feel nearly identical. So at least the exterior parts canāt be all that different. But I am guessing the drivers used are quite different (both have BAs) and are sourced differently, but Iām curious just how large of a price difference there is in IEM drivers? I have no idea if that range is in a few dollars or hundreds of dollars.
Tuning/development differences - I canāt help but feel like over-ear headphones must be more difficult and time consuming in getting a well tuned sound? Having to consider materials used, driver type, driver size, damping, volume of earcups, pad types, pad fits, etc. That all seems so much more difficult than what goes into the process of building an IEM. But I honestly have no idea so Iām curious if you have thoughts on how these processes compare?
MSRP choices - So ultimately, these questions I have all come down to trying to understand if IEM pricing reaching well into the $1k+ territory for IEMs like Andromedas, and up to the Tia Fourte $4k levels is at all justified given the cost of R&D, parts, assembly, etc? Or is my suspicion that IEMs are far cheaper and easier to design and build than headphones and that IEMs are setting prices purely based on reflecting headphone prices and capitalizing on what they know audiophiles are willing to pay? Because in terms of both build and sound quality, I feel like the gap between Chi-fi IEMs and Andromeda isnāt that large. But I do feel the gap between cheap Chinese headphones and HD800 is significant, yet the price differences are very similar.
Anyways, Iām just a little unsettled by the IEM market and how they are priced so Iām curious if you have any good insight that either justifies my feelings or rather dispels some incorrect notions, thanks!
Oratory1990:
Hi there!
Well first we have to get one thing out of the way: The MSRP does not represent quality of the product, it is a figure of imagination. Itās a representation of the market segment that the manufacturer is targetting, a representation of what consumers are willing to spend. It does not tell you anything about how āgoodā the product itself is.
Thereās no shame in saying that a 120 dollar earphone sounds better than that 3500 dollar 12-driver custom IEM - it may very well be true that the 12-dollar earphone just is better , because price doesnāt tell you about the quality of the product.
Now that we got that out of the way, to the issue at hand:
- Bill of materials - How different are the costs of parts for headphones vs IEMs? The thing that bothers me is that my Chi-fi KZ IEM has a metal shell modeled exactly like Andromeda and comparing their build side-by-side they feel nearly identical. So at least the exterior parts canāt be all that different. But I am guessing the drivers used are quite different (both have BAs) and are sourced differently, but Iām curious just how large of a price difference there is in IEM drivers? I have no idea if that range is in a few dollars or hundreds of dollars.
IEMās are cheaper to produce, yes, simply because the BOM is smaller. If it comes down to it, you need a cable (audio connector, splitter, and about 2 meters of cable), two drivers and two shells, which typically consist of two parts. If you want to go beyond the dollar-store category, add a few glue/mesh subassemblies that cost a few cents each, and you got everything you need for a high-end product.
Now itās the job of the marketing guy to come up with some mumbo jumbo.
For headphones you have the earcups which are a bit larger than ear-shells (which means less pieces per injection mold), and then thereās the headband, which can get pretty hard if you want to do better than your generic āslide to fitā.To be more specific: yes, that metal shell is probably all but identical. It looks like a regular CNC-milled part. Iām not a mechanical engineer, but the mech.engineers at our company always tell me that CNC milling is expensive, although maybe thatās just because we typically deal with very small quantities. Weāre only doing prototypes and reference designs after all.
When it comes to drivers you can do it the hard way or the easy way - moving-coil drivers can be bought off the shelve or developed in-house. BA drivers are almost always bought as an ODM component, the BA market is basically divided between three companies: Knowles, Sonion and Sony (with Sony having the smallest part of the market. If youāre buying a high-end 50-BA-multidriver-super-duper-CIEM you can bet there are Knowles drivers inside.
BA drivers can cost anywhere between 5 and 50 EUR, depending on quantity and specific model.
Then of course thereās always chinese knockoffs. Iāve seen Ultimate-Ears-knockoffs with only 1 driver actually working, the others just being metal blobs made to look like BA drivers. Itās absolutely crazy what the chinese knockoff-industry comes up with to save a few dollars.
In your case Iām betting that the drivers are completely different from the original - as is everything else inside . The shape, the volumes, the tube lengths inside the shells are what makes up the sound of an earphone, and thatās where the research goes (that and magnets and diaphragm materials/shapes).
Itās also not something you see from the outside, so easy to ignore when copying a product.
- Tuning/development differences - I canāt help but feel like over-ear headphones must be more difficult and time consuming in getting a well tuned sound? Having to consider materials used, driver type, driver size, damping, volume of earcups, pad types, pad fits, etc. That all seems so much more difficult than what goes into the process of building an IEM. But I honestly have no idea so Iām curious if you have thoughts on how these processes compare?
No youāre right. Headphones are harder to get right because thereās a lot more factors.
With IEMs itās essentially five things to do as the acoustics engineer:
get a driver with a fitting resonance frequency (3 kHz is a good start, thatās where you want your main peak). Thatās your first resonance: driver resonance, typically ~3 kHz.
Consider the tube between the driver and the front of the eartip - it introduces another resonance. Adjusting the length of this tube adjusts its resonance frequency. Thatās your second resonance: The output tube resonance, typically somewhere between 4 and 8 kHz. Use it to fill the hole between the driver resonance (fres1) and fres3:
Consider the ear canal between the earphone and the eardrum - it introduces the third main resonance. Thereās not much you can do to adjust it, since itās not part of the earphone. You can increase the resonance frequency by designing a deep-insertion earphone (think Etymotic) or you can reduce it by designing a shallow-insertion earphone (think Sennheiser IE800). Itās your third resonance: the ear canal resonance typically at 7-9 kHz.
Design the size of the back volume to shape the bass response of your earphone.
use damping of venting holes or meshes inserted into tubes to damp the individual resonances to taste and to bring the overall frequency response towards your target response.
And thatās the short version of the last 10-20 years of earphone design. Everything else is decided by marketing and the industrial designers. Things like the material and shape of the shell, fancy names for your vents (APEX/ADEL), fancy names for your drivers (linear phase ultra wideband low mass Tesla driver) or just plain lies (Hi-Res Audio).
With around-the-ear headphones itās a lot more difficult, you have the earpads to consider, the baffle, and youāre at least partly leaving the realm of the pressure-chamber effect, which makes things a bit more complicated.
- MSRP choices - So ultimately, these questions I have all come down to trying to understand if IEM pricing reaching well into the $1k+ territory for IEMs like Andromedas, and up to the Tia Fourte $4k levels is at all justified given the cost of R&D, parts, assembly, etc? Or is my suspicion that IEMs are far cheaper and easier to design and build than headphones and that IEMs are setting prices purely based on reflecting headphone prices and capitalizing on what they know audiophiles are willing to pay? Because in terms of both build and sound quality, I feel like the gap between Chi-fi IEMs and Andromeda isnāt that large. But I do feel the gap between cheap Chinese headphones and HD800 is significant, yet the price differences are very similar.
For what its worth, Sennheiser could probably sell the HD800 for 300 EUR and still make a profit. But thatās not how marketing and sales work.
The price of a headphone (be it AE, OE or IEM) isnāt determined by material or R&D, itās mostly marketing and what marketing deems people willing to pay.There are only very few headphones that actually cost a significant amount of money to build. The drivers of the Sennheiser HE-1 (Orpheus) actually cost about 1000 EUR per piece to manufacture, or at least thatās my educated guess. Similar with the Audeze LCD-4 - that baby is just really pricey to manufacture.
In the case of the Orpheus of course the engineers didnāt even try to find a cheaper way of producing it, they were just told to ādo whatever is necessaryā, because the Orpheus isnāt actually meant to be sold. Itās a statement piece. There was just no need to bring down the cost.
So Paul, basically your intuition and mine as well is correct. The cost of IEM design and implementation is far lower than headphones. I postulate that the MAIN DRIVING FACTOR for determining IEM prices is based on the headphone market and what IEM companies know audiophiles are willing to spend. It definitely bothers me that IEMs are priced the way they are. The only justification I can come up with is that the high end IEM market is probably much smaller than the high end headphone market, so they have to make up for the volume differences with price increases. However, I wish they would all force their prices lower and try to drive up volume/demand more. For instance, with $1100 Andromeda, I always wonder if they dropped the price to $550, would they sell twice as many? My intuition says they would, but thatās just me.
Also, I will tag @andrew here because I also talked to him directly about this and because his store sells Campfire Audio and has a relationship with the owner, Ken Ball, he has mentioned that he doesnāt believe Campfire Audio is trying to excessively gouge IEM enthusiasts with their prices. He also noted that conversely, the owner of KZ (major Chi-fi brand) is extremely wealthy in China. So no doubt there definitely may be some truth to the supply/demand and volume impact on pricing and profits.
7 Likes