Thanks I_want_all_the_tacos. You really are a wealth of knowledge. It really is an interesting subject and as well as you I believe that the Andromeda’s would sell in much higher volume if they were brought down in price. Their quality and great sound are obviously appreciated in the community and I am sure that even at $700 they would sell by the boat load. However, would this mean that they lose some of their TOTL/Premium mystique to some people?
It’s really interesting what Oratory1990 said regarding our thoughts. I kind of had a hunch that it would be a case of overcharging in many instances. It’s also great to hear the processes behind how iem’s come to fruition. I didn’t expect that there would be such a difference in how difficult it is to come up with full size headphones. I thought that it would mainly be down to materials and extra R&D. I haven’t appreciated just how complex they are in both their science and design.
I couldn’t see myself paying much over the price of the Andromeda’s for iem’s in the future. Just looking at a Focal Utopia vs any TOTL Iem side by side there would seem to be a large disparity between the two.
Although I would love to own some $4000 iem’s I think I may start moving back towards the full size variety to try to find better value. Even though they are often overpriced themselves. Thanks to both you and Oratory1990 once again you’ve answered my questions.
-Paul-
This is most definitely a factor. In the near future I am planning to do a comparison/shootout of IEMs across the various price ranges and Chi-fi knock-offs vs the real deal is an issue I plan to dive into more thoroughly. Basically, my belief is that I think having a high end, premium brand name carries a lot of weight not just in this hobby but in all matters of life. I compare this to other sectors like watches with Rolex vs Chinese kock-offs or in hand bags with Lois Vuitton and similar knock-offs. If you have spent any time with really good knock-offs it is incredible the accuracy they are able to achieve, such that sometimes it might take an expert in the field to distinguish the subtle differences. But as good as knock-off can get, does it really matter? I approach this topic in that there are usually 2 groups of consumers. One group just wants the certain design/look/functionality at the cheapest price possible. Brand name doesn’t matter and it is all about maximizing value for the money. The second group are people that take pride in ownership of a certain brand becomes it represents a higher meaning to them, like how much they worked toward being able to afford the expensive label. And that is totally ok and understandable. Everyone values materials differently and derives pleasure in their own ways. So back to IEMs, I completely understand the group that goes after Chi-fi, because in reality Chi-fi is so good these days that they are nearly indistinguishable from premium IEMs. And there is a TON of value for price to performance in Chi-fi. I am incredibly impressed with how good Chi-fi sounds. But on the other hand, there are lots of people that have dreamed of owning Andromedas since the moment they saw them and have worked hard, saved up money, and the joy of achieving them no doubt is a psychological factor and I believe even influences how they perceive the sound quality. And Andromedas are excellent sounding IEMs for sure. But I still think a huge part of the satisfaction is also from knowing you own a premium, highly praised IEM that people respect. So bottom line is that even though all industries fall into this trap of huge markup because of premium brand names, that is just human nature and will always be a part of supply/demand.
I will chime in herewith another difference. The audience that IEMs are catered to.
IEMs were originally designed for musicians and audiophiles kind of picked them up and ran with it.
Their primary design for companies like JH, UE and the like are still for musicians and musicians are willing to pay the premium.
For Campfire, I won’t comment on it too much but I think relative to the competition the price point is fair (as a caveat, the point about build materials in regards to IEMs is definitely noteworthy).
IE 800 S $999.95
SE846 $999.00
W80 $1499
Kaiser Encore $1850
Katana $1850
Andromeda $1099
AF1120 $699.99
I’d probably take the Andromeda everytime out of that list.
This is true. A lot of pricing is done around expected sales.
It’s hard to argue with a teardown of the bill of materials and R&D costs when discussing IEM prices. I think it’s an interesting “first principles” way to look at the IEM market. It reminds me of Elon Musk looking at the bill of materials to make rockets and concluding he could make them much cheaper than the government.
Before you read the next bit, I should mention that we sell Campfire Audio and that I know and like the founder Ken. My thoughts are obviously influenced by that relationship, however they have nothing to do with me protecting our relationship or protecting sales. For example, we also sell Noble Audio, but I think their TOTL offerings are overpriced by any measure.
Based on what I know of Campfire, I don’t think they want to be a high volume company. That’s a totally different ballgame that requires logistics, manufacturing and supply-chain mastery. I think their prices have more to do with the customers they want (both quantity and quality) and the type of company they want (small batch, artistic, attention to detail, based in Portland) than the bill of materials.
KZ is not spending money on their brand or product design nor are they paying Portland Oregon salaries and expenses. KZ are strictly “producers” while I would say that Campfire are “creators.” I personally gravitate toward the craft and the brand - I love that stuff. However I’m also glad that there are good products available at low price points these days. It introduces many more people to our hobby, and that’s a great thing.
I would really like to see the iem write up. I totally agree with your thoughts regarding iem’s as a status symbol. Also your point on Chi-Fi is a relevant one. They’ve been getting a huge amount of forum time for a while all over the web. It seems to be ‘THE’ growing market if I’m not mistaken. Not a week goes by without the hype train pushing the latest and greatest. And with good reason if many people are to be believed. I personally haven’t tried any chi-fi yet. I will succumb eventually.
I love my Andromeda’s not because of the looks but the wonderful sound. They’re built well too which is great. I feel very lucky to own them.
-Paul-
This is an excellent way of phrasing it and you really hit the nail on the head. I totally agree that what Campfire Audio is doing innovating and creating better IEMs is a huge deal, and sometimes I take that for granted. It is definitely much easier for KZ to rip them off and just mass produce knock-offs. And I am right with you in the appreciation and respect for companies that are craftsmen. That is exactly why I own so much ZMF stuff and respect Zach.
Bottom line, I think this hobby (and all hobbies really) need and benefit from both sides of this. Some consumers are perfectly happy paying the higher prices for the people innovating and promoting premium products that are crafted well. Others just want to get the most bang for the buck and are ok with knock-offs that are 95% the same without the pride of ownership.
OFF TOPIC: @andrew since you mentioned the “craft” side of this hobby, that reminded me of a really great youtube series called “Raw Craft” which focuses on the artisan craft leaders in various hobbies/industries and appreciating what elevates their work above others. I think you would really enjoy it, here is a link to the playlist of episodes.
Interesting thoughts. I have no idea what KZ spends on R&D, but one of the benefits of high volume mass-market sales is that they generate money that can be put into R&D. Apple is a prime example of the virtuous cycle of sales -> design -> sales.
On an only moderately related note, I wonder how open source could play into this. Balanced armature’s are readily (if not cheaply) available, 3D printing makes custom housings possible and a variety of tips are easy to come by …
I just have to put my two cents in (or $2500) on this topic. I paid the $2500 not because I
t is chic or to show off. I happen to love classical music above all other music (although I have much of other also). When I read about a dozen reviews of these headphones, all raves, I just had to buy them but with a money back guarantee. The only thing I found difficult was the 47 inch cable so I bought a cable eight feet long. I can now sit in my chair and enjoy the great sound. Yes, it cost a lot and I am not wealthy but you should hear Mahler, Bach, Mozart, etc. They sound even better then I thought, even better than Geffen Hall here in New York. Some people may be correct about why prices are so high but to me, it is well worth it if you feel so great about the music you love even if you are not rich. Happy listening!
I hear ya. It’s all about the music at the end of the day.
Like some, I also like the gear collecting side of it too, as well as the music. Heck some might just like collecting the gear (maybe that’s for another thread) but In the end I do like my music. Enjoy, whatever your budget.
-Paul-
My view is that the purchase price doesn’t matter nearly as much as the residual used/resale value. If I pay $1,000 and sell for $500 the product cost me $500. But if I buy at $1,500 and sell at $1,300 it cost me only $200. This applies to anything sell-able (e.g., compare Jeep Wrangler vs. Chevy minivan depreciation). I’m inclined to wait until the early adopters start to sell, or wait until the first retail price cut.
With care and thought, many hobbies can involve much lower costs than the sticker prices. For non-electronic collectable items the out-of-pocket costs can be $0 or even make a profit over time (e.g., mechanical watches, pocket knives, etc.) For computers the residual value quickly goes to $0, so I treat them as pure consumption. Quality headphones and audio gear fall somewhere in the middle.
I find that by doing a little bit of shopping around and not buying for two weeks, that I have saved money on every set of headphones that I have purchased. And look for bundles on sites even on the high end gear. You may end up with a amp and a case with the headphones for the same price, maybe even less. For example Buy Dig had ATH M50X’S FOR $149, but if you looked at the bundles, there for a while, you could buy the M50X’S and a FiiO A3 for $139. And yes this was at the same time. Save 10 and add an amp, no brainier. And before anyone ask, the M50X’S are a classic great sounding can, but I do not consider them top of the line.
I think that any price above 600 dollars is ridiculous. I am thinking that we are paying for a well know audiophile name. I have tried many headphones under 600 that sound wonderful, such as the B&W P7s which I own.
It’s the chase of that ever diminishing return mixed with “shiny”. I think do you, find what you are in this for, and pursue that until you are either content or sick and tired
In Summary I believe that everyones ears are different hence What makes some people enjoy the sound of a headphone might not be the same as another person. Therefor if the High priced headphones make you happy and you enjoy the sound , by all means buy them . That goes for the lower priced cans too. Its all about being satisfied and enjoyment.
Once you start getting up in that range for headphones you are definitely paying for diminishing returns. But you also start paying for things like aesthetics, comfort, build quality etc… (except in the case of Stax, those are pretty ugly outside of the SR-009 and 007).
Or until your wife is sick and tired and forces you to stop! Haha.
“I don’t know about that”
