You might like to read this excellent article / forum thread by Listener, which tackles the concept of soundstage and the spaciousness effect - including with reference to the Edition XS: Soundstage Is (Much) More Complicated Than You Think.
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Wouldn’t mind if you guys talk about how this might or might not be relevant for headphones, and perhaps how similar tests might be helpful for people at home to better understand the differences between headphones they have.
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I wonder whether the radiation angle (and general placement / tilt) of of the headphone driver might shape the sound waves interaction with the pinna / ear canal and cause differences in the perception of e.g., spaciousness / “sound stage” – in particular differences beyond what can simply be achieved using EQ. Or whether driver radiation angles do not play much of a role within the earcup.
I (currently) only really care about differences between drivers / headphones that cannot be reasonably eliminated with EQ (like potentially spaciousness / sound stage), because those that can be eliminated I very likely do eliminate the way I use EQ.
Related to that: While I’m getting closer to the position of “almost everything is in the FR” (exceptions noted in the Owliophile Q&A section), I find it a reasonable assumption that certain “perceivable things” are completely caused by a headphone’s particular FR at the ear drum, but are at the same time not purposefully shape-able with EQ. That said, I’m not fully clear on what kind of “imprint” in the FR this could be. I don’t perceive any significant peaks of dips in the FR of a ARC-corrected speaker, and thus don’t expect pronounced spaciousness to necessitate any particular large peaks or dips. And if it isn’t those then… some kind of particular FR imprint that is too small to be noticed during a sweep? I’m a bit skeptical.
Oh and please don’t see this as an off-topic rant (Griffin :-p), it’s meant purely inspirational for a future streams’ topics.
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Oh I’m 100% certain it makes a big difference in how headphones sound. Even my wife who doesn’t give more than half a shit about sound quality mentioned to me immediately how lifelike my EQed OAE1 sounds for podcasts. The imaging precision really stands out.
That said, since very few reviews compare headphones EQed, let alone EQing with the goal of eliminating as much difference in tonality as possible between headphones, I think the physical designs of each headphones hasn’t been isolated as a variable that can reliably be compared. I’m sure this has been done at the OEM level during development, but it’s lacking in terms of knowledge in the consumer world.
It would be fun to hear the guys explore this topic some more.
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@listener you mentioned EQing out the peaks and dips in the APP2, how’d you do it? Maybe you guys could talk about methods of doing that on your next stream. How to EQ to the next level in a reliable and repeatable way.
Also another topic I’d be interesting in hearing about is if there’s a correlation between physical aspects of the headphones that consistently changes sound quality perception, like larger cup size, larger driver diaphragm, more angled drivers, driver that sits more forwards in the cup. Stuff that don’t necessarily show up in measurements but makes a difference to your enjoyment of music.
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I’m with Luke on this one. If there a way you can teach us how one goes about equalizing properly?
For instance, you’ll state that there is a peak at 8k. How do you know that? How do you identify it? I’m perfectly competent eq-ing my KE4 to my Hype4 via Squiglink, but when I hear something how the heck do I know “how” to make an appropriate adjustment?
How about a discussion on ways to curate a personal headphone collection?
After my initial phase several years ago of just wanting to own lots and lots of headphones (something similar to the Zeos insane wall of headphones that just collects dust), I’ve gone down various paths:
- collecting representatives of different sound signatures
- collecting all of “the classics”
- Collecting good representative examples of different price points (best under 50, under 100, under 250…)
- collecting driver types in open/closed back
- Collecting from different countries of origin
- Collecting units that sound unique
- Heavy use case focus, one headphone for each use case I have for listening
- Selling it all to buy one or two really expensive units
- …
What are some good strategies to curate a headphone collection? Maybe thinking about it at different budgets.
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Yeah, it would be great if you guys talk about this more in detail. More than just “use sweeps”.
Personally I use a fairly detailed method that’s quite tedious to identify and eliminate peaks and dips and channel balances using Owliophile, then add back a preference curve by listening to various music. It would be great to compare notes and see what I could be doing better for the ultimate sound quality in a controlled and repeatable manner.
In case anyone wants to know how I do it:
- Place headphones on head in a comfortable and easily identifiable position, usually for me that means pushing the cups forward on my head without bending the ears
- Play a sweep for only the left side from 20-16000hz for 25s
- Use Owliophile’s marker tools to mark down obvious deviations during this sweep
- Zoom in by limiting frequency range, zoom into an area where a peak or dip is sandwiched by areas of “normal” magnitude
- Manually drag the tone generator back and forth to identify where normal ends, place green markers, find the peak and place red marker or dip with blue
- Use eq tool to add filter to equalize out the peak, adjust Q to fit within the green markers
- Use manual sweep again and adjust filter to make it sound as smooth as possible
- Do this for all peaks and dips
- Turn on both left and right side
- Equalize the right side so that the tone remains centered throughout the frequency range
- Take off headphones and put them on again, play frequency sweep
- If my filters now creates its own peaks and dip due to slight variations in headphones positioning, lower the magnitude of those filters by half
- Repeat step 11 and 12 one more time
- Play various music and adjust larger Q filters to taste
Please note, my focus is on the budget end of things, but I would expect the priorities I have outlined below, would also apply to mid tier priced products.
What are our challenges. In choosing headphones (and IEM’s, and speakers)?
- Most buyers or enthusiasts, are limited by budget.
- Many are limited by experience, it takes a while to accumulate a good knowledge of various devices, to determine what sounds good, to the listener.
- It is almost impossible to listen to a significant variety of devices, side by side. And human memory is unreliable, trying to compare from memory. This makes it difficult to compare.
- Fear of missing out. You wonder what is out there that you may be missing?
- It is nigh on impossible to hear every single device out there, cos there are so many. And the number of options increases each year.
- Reviews are difficult to trust, cos some may have commercial reasons for their published opinions, i.e. biases. Say nice things, cos they have been paid or received a free product and are obliged to be lenient, in their opinions.
I do not have much experience with buying headphones and IEM’s, having owned/bought less than 15 different models. But from this limited experience, permit me to share my conclusions.
- There is a price threshold below which, it’s IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent sound. Anyone who has produced a good sounding devices, will charge a fair penny for their product. If it’s dirt cheap, it’s unlikely to be a keeper, or a contender for the Greatest of All Time (GOAT) device. A major cost of manufacture is quality control. Anything below a certain budget, has transferred the responsibility for quality control, to the customer. i.e. we end up being the guinea pig for mismatched levels or frequency response, poor product design with features not well implemented or products which are not durable. We find out the hard way. Not worth the anticipated savings, the bargain basement products They are deliberately made for a non-discerning customer for whom price is the only criteria.
In my opinion, for Headphones, that minimum is about $200. And for IEM’s about $40. i.e. the likelihood of finding anything truly satisfying, below such price points, is slim.
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By and large stick with the well known brands. Who have a significant investment in the kind of product you want to acquire.
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Consensus by the majority of reviewers(including reviews by “ordinary” buyers) tends to weed out the worst performers. The devices which come highly recommended, may not be the best sounding, but certainly not the worst.
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There will always be a better device, which one will never own. If one remains prudent, contentment is a desirable attribute. Know when to stop. The passion/hobby can be addictive, cos better is always on the horizon. Set clear limits on budget, and rarely go significantly above these set limits.
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More people should consider IEM’s. Cos there are outstanding opportunities in IEMs, which cost a fraction of an over ear headphone. They are smaller, more portable, can be less expensive, and easier to acquire a few, to compare and learn and develop familiarity with a range of sound signatures. The only real caveat with IEM’s is their closed back nature, needs a very good fit, and there is a learning curve with choosing ear tips (stock and third party) to achieve the best fit, and they need a headphone output with low output impedance, ideally below 1 Ohm…
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I have found planar magnetic IEM’s to be exceptional value for money, exceeding the “performance” of much more expensive Over Ear headphones. So would suggest getting at least one of each type of IEM driver type. Models that I have found pretty decent, are :
6.1. Planar Magnetic - KZ PRX or ARTTI T10 ( or both cos they are not expensive) Typically less than $50 each. These are my current top 2 budget IEMs.
6.2 Single Dynamic Driver - e.g.7Hz Zero 2 OR KZ SAGA Balanced version.
6.3 Multi Driver - e.g KZ Castor Pro - Harman Edition or Bass Enhanced version - These are dual DD IEMs.
Depending on sale conditions, All of the above IEM’s can be acquired for a total cost of about $120, for the 6 suggested IEM’s above, i.e an average cost of $20 per IEM. Providing an incredible starting off point, that delivers excellent ear education, of some of the best budget IEM’s for not much money.
You obviously do not have to buy all six. A KZ PRX + 7Hz Zero 2 + KZ Castor Pro Bass Enhanced version - i.e. 3 starter IEM’s with different driver types, would cost about $70 in total, which is a pretty affordable introduction to what’s possible in the budget range, before you go any further.
Thereafter - you can decide you want to spend 100’s or 1,000’s of dollars on other IEM’s or Headphones.
You’d be hard pressed to find ONE decent Over the Ear Headphone for $120, and definitely none for $70.
All the IEM’s I have suggested above, I discovered through very strong recommendations by many professional reviewers, and those who bought and left reviews on product sites. By and large with a bit of research, the products that receive broad acceptance, from my experience, tend to sound pretty good, especially for the price. Bought based on this consensus, and was usually satisfied with the purchase.
I have not heard it and am not planning to buy, but the Truthear Crinacle Zero Blue 2, should be pretty good. Albeit the initial price is rather high. Hopefully over the next few months, this may reduce in price.
I think this is a fallacy that many people get tripped up on. Due to your experience and headphone collection over the years, I’m sure you already know that price doesn’t necessarily dictate superiority, so we need to be careful about buying based on price tiers. The same applies to speakers - a high price doesn’t guarantee good sound.
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I’m not saying all of these ways I’ve listed for curating a collection are good ideas. I’m just trying to put out a topic for discussion on the show: what are some good strategies for curating a good headphone collection?
It’s easy to fall into many traps that needlessly cost a lot of money.
Maybe another way to put the idea is this: If I’m going to own 2 headphones, what should I look for in the second one to make owning two worth while? Or 3 or 4 (or more) headphones? If they all sound the same, or have the same form factor, what’s the point?
We talk a lot about buying headphones in a bit of a vacuum, like it’s going to be the only one I have. but what if I already own x or y headphone? What are some strategies for deciding on headphone #2 or #3 in my collection?
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In last week’s stream, Resolve made a comment about the Moondrop Cosmo having a really capable driver, and that got me wondering about what exactly that meant. It reminded me of some of the things in the thread I started about driver story. So I thought I would come here and suggest you could talk about it, and maybe discuss the different headphone technologies and their pros and cons. Life got in the way and I didn’t end up having time for the forum 'til now. But lo and behold, you seem to have completely anticipated this, because I was pleasantly surprised that the main topic in the latest Noise Floor was exactly this. Well played sirs.
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Listened to this past noise floor and it was interesting to understand compression as correlated to the FR. I had always thought of compression as more of a loudness mapping to the voltage levels. For example, assuming 1v is 100% of ‘loudness’, a linear compression is 0.5V is 50% loudness and so on. My perception of IEMS with “compressed” sound is a non-linear response to how loud things should sound, shifted towards lower voltage results in higher ‘loudness’. e.g. 0.1 V is not 10% volume but like 80%, so quite parts in music or instruments just don’t sound quiet enough, so there’s not much ‘separation’ in the music hence sounding ‘compressed’. Maybe I’m confusing this with something else? (dynamics??) Just wanting to hear y’all thoughts and if this is even something significant or if it at all has been tested. Thanks for the podcasts, interesting as always!
I’ve been in this hobby since I bought my first stereo system and pair of headphones in 1979. Over the decades it has always been obvious to me that there is no common understanding or consensus on the meaning of all of the subjective terminology used in users’ and reviewers’ descriptions of headphones and other equipment. For example, when a person describes a tube amp being “warm sounding”, what exactly does that mean? What does warmth sound like? Another example is how some people describe horn speakers as “bright”, while others say they are “shouty”. What does bright sound like? What does shouty sound like? Are these people actually describing the same sound? What does “boomy” bass sound like? What area(s) of the frequency range are responsible for all of these terms? What does “airy” treble mean? What’s the difference between “clarity” and “detail”? When you guys are reviewing equipment, you use these terms and many others, but not all of us interpret your meaning in the same way, because we don’t all agree on what each of the terms mean. In fact, there may even be differences in how each of you reviewers use these terms. A podcast on this subject would be interesting and enlightening to a very large audience I would think.
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Suggested Podcast Topic:
Sustaining Passion in the Audiophile Hobby
Discussion Prompts:
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What Keeps You Motivated?
Considering all that you now know about HRTF, HPTF, and the many technical variables that can make this hobby complex and even overwhelming at times—what continues to fuel your interest in headphone reviewing? What drives you to dedicate so much time to researching, testing, and refining your understanding? -
Staying Inspired and Engaged:
How do you keep the experience fresh and exciting, especially when facing the risk of burnout or monotony? Are there specific routines, discoveries, or challenges that help reignite your enthusiasm? -
Maintaining Perspective Amid Evolving Preferences:
With years of listening, testing, and research under your belt, you’ve likely developed highly specific tastes. How do you avoid becoming jaded or overly critical of the market? What strategies help you maintain a balanced, open-minded perspective?
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Been awhile since metal571 put in an appearance. I’d like to hear some of his takes on the spate of recent headphone releases. Especially some of the new lower cost releases with a more neutral-ish response from reputable mfrs… if you can get him some gear to listen to!
It’s probably time for another Doc Olive visit as well. And Todd Welti would also be interesting, if he’s willin. As would Brent Butterworth (who might enjoy an opportunity to promote his own new podcast, Audio Unleashed).
It might also be interesting to have someone with a more subjective perspective as well. I’m just sort of spitballin here, but a conversation between one or two of the above luminaries and someone like a Steve Guttenberg, or maybe CheapAudioMan, etc. could be fun and educational. I know Steve listens to some headphones, and has some interesting takes on them from time to time (even though he’s not really a headphone guy). Not sure about some of the others in the more subjective space.
Maybe others have some better suggestions along these lines.
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Wish I knew Grell was going to be on the podcast earlier so I could join in on time! Loved all the specific questions @Mad_Economist asked. Not entirely sure if Grell convinced any of you that a different FR is more realistically emulating good speakers in a studio, or if that’s even the ultimate headphones sound quality goal to aim towards, but at least Grell’s direction for what he wants to achieve is cleared up.
Thanks to @Resolve and @listener for asking great questions and getting knowledgeable guests on the show.
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This was one of my favorite live streams we’ve done. Both Axel Grell and Jermo are knowledgeable in ways the community has yet to understand, and I hope folks were able to get a glimpse of that through this discussion - despite us pushing back on some of their ideas.
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Sweet! Will enjoy checking this out.
I’m at the halfway point in the Axel Grell podcast now, and it’s quite good. It definitely gets down into the weeds. The first half is mostly Grell and Blaine discussing Grell’s sound design philosophy.
The subject of subjectiveness. There is no substitute for experience.