A/V Receivers and which high-end headphones "if any" will sound best for it's purpose?

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This is my current set-up. On the left is the Glenn OTL. On the right is a McIntosh 4100. Direct from the headphone jack of the 4100 I can get pretty close to what my Glenn is putting out. Im actually getting more bass and dynamics from the 4100 at the cost of staging in all directions.

The 4100 is quite expensive for a vintage receiver, and its certainly not a necessary purchase for headphone use. I still have my Sansui 881 I used in the video I did,and that sounds excellent as well. I paid $75.00 for it.

I have 2 modern upper mid-level AVRs, one from Yamaha and one from NAD. Both sound like garbage from the HP jack.

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I can’t speak to your sense of nostalgia – it’s a powerful motivator for many people. However, on a technical level, cassette Walkmans were not as good as you remember them. I refused to buy any music on cassette because of their general roughness, short lifespan as the tapes demagnetized, and fragility in everyday use. All my friends had to periodically and carefully extract the skinny tapes when they got jammed in their Walkmans or car players.

Setting nostalgia aside, your comments suggest to me that your hearing may be changing. All of us lose sensitivity over the years – an audiologist could check it out. We all experience this as we age. An equalizer can sometimes compensate, and you also noted that 1980s devices had built-in equalizers. Maybe you are seeking to recreate the V shaped tone profile common to the 1980s? With age, a super-V profile may be appropriate.

Based on your description, you current setup technically STOMPS on any analog cassette system ever made. Any upgrade will just move it farther and farther above cassettes. They were really pretty bad…

Maybe get a Schiit Loki EQ and boost the highs before buying anything else?

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Ah, yes, the wonderful lose-lose options of flipping the Dolby switch on and getting muffled, congested sound or turning it off and getting highly intrusive and fatiguing tape hisssssssssssssssssssss. Happy times.

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Nice looking setup. Old receivers look pretty with their green or blue glows. In the earlier days, I didn’t usually have a receiver, went to separates fairly quickly. Back in the early 70s when I was in college Hi-Fi was a popular hobby. While I tried a number of things, we always used to borrow stuff for each other to try. I had a Lafayette integrated amp as my fallback - not high end, but I usually had other stuff.

Used the old PAS-2 Dynaco for a short while but had the PAT-4 for at least a year. I don’t recall ever trying the headphone jack. Maybe you know what the quality was.
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This one is on eBay now for $90.

Around 2000, I picked up this baby used and it was my primary integrated amp for about 15 years From the period you mentioned, 100 watts RMS per channel, one of the flagship Sansui products from the time that Sansui was making a run on Marantz. In your video, you talk about the brands. Marantz was top of the line, along with Phase Linear. Sansui and Pioneer were probably next in line. Sony, as you say was very good then also. Onkyo, Hitachi, Panasonic, Akai, AIWA, and others were around, and there were always fairly late Fisher and Dynaco - that were in their decline after landmark tube designs.Tiger made great kits - mostly amps - back then.

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My Sansui AU-919. Still maintained, great headphone output. Very low distortion for speakers. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Before the Sansui, I had an Onkyo integrated amp, from the period you like, but it has digital meters instead of analog, which I also prefer. I had/have a nice FM tuner, so I never felt the need for a receiver. Most people here probably know that the receivers packaged tuner, amp, and preamp all in one. An integrated leaves out the tuner, and separates are what you think.
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The Onkyo. Still have that, original condition, works, but the first led on the left meter is intermittent. That’s my backup - backup. Last, and certainly least the Lafayette I got - I think the summer I got out of high school (1972) it is a 1971 model.
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This is entry level crap, but built like a tank.

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Nice setup. $75 for the 881 is a score, great find. After watching your video, I’ve had my eye on vintage receiver listings. Since I want to have the option to run lower sensitivity speakers, I’m looking at some of the higher power models, although not at the uber high levels.

I’m considering the Sansui G9000/G8000 (perhaps ideally the non DB versions since of less/no use today and higher risk of equipment failure), 9090/8080, Eight Deluxe, Eight, and 881.

Taking into account purchase price and all-in repair/restoration, is there a certain ceiling on the amount to spend on the vintage receiver models I mention before it might make more sense to get a high performing modern headphone amp (based on sound quality only and not collector’s item appeal)? I realize this is a subjective/personal determination, but would appreciate any input you have.

I also considered the Fisher and Sansui tube receivers from the 60s, but I hesitate with higher risk of equipment failure and maintenance cost @pennstac.

You might enjoy this: https://youtu.be/HUURuA17n5E.

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Man, it was bittersweet seeing that pic.

The AU-919 was my favorite piece from that era. Pains me to no longer have it.

The feel of the controls, so amazing.

I still remember flipping the power switch and all the lights in the room would dim for a moment.

Of course, I probably couldn’t even lift it anymore.

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Beware shipping costs, beware shipping damage, and beware bad capacitors. I’ve poked around Craigslist for old amps and speakers because of local pickup and pre-purchase testing. Old stuff is better than a lot of even current consumer grade stuff, but not as good as new premium or prosumer stuff.

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Kenwood would like a word, I kid. Your Sansui AU-919 – :+1:t3:

Good points, especially your statement “not as good as new premium/prosumer.” Thus, I’ve hesitated and not proceeded to purchasing where I felt comfortable. Thanks.

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Let’s just say, there’s no way I’m giving up my Bifrost 2 / Lyr 3 stack!!!

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Once you pass the century mark on wattage the prices begin to climb quite high, especially with Big 3, Sansui, Marantz and Pioneer. The 881 isnt a Monster( 65wpc I believe) The Eight Deluxe is similarly rated, and has a rabid following. Be prepared to drop close to a grand for it.

Your best bet if you dont want to pay “The Marantz Tax” is to find one of the less popular brands like Akai, Onkyo or better yet, if you can find one are the Concept receivers, which was the house brand from Pacific Stereo, a west coast stereo chain from the 1970s. They sound phenomenal! The Concept 16.5 was the TOTL, but prices on those have begun to skyrocket as well.

What speakers are you wanting to drive? 8 or 4 ohms?

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Thanks for your input. I’ll continue to scout Sansui, but I don’t like paying more Tax than I need to.

I’ll look into the Concept receivers :+1:t3:. I didn’t live in CA when Pacific was around, but am familiar with the chain.

My speakers are 4 ohm and 85 dB sensitivity.

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Make sure whichever receiver you get has a 4 ohm rating. Ive read that otherwise you can damage your receiver.

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@Cyan69, let’s return from our journey down memory lane with our Walkmans (Walkmen?) and old receivers and stay on task. Can you go over your current audio chain again, but this time be very exact on how you are connecting each component? Describe each connection individually.

My feeling is that you should keep your Sundara right now, and use some of your $2000 budget to buy a new DAC and amp. The Sundara is a good headphone, certainly good enough to test your replacement DAC and amp, to make sure it sounds the way you like it. If it doesn’t sound good with your Sundara, then it probably won’t sound good with a more expensive headphone. As others have mentioned above, you should be able to buy something good with a $200-400 budget. Given that, let’s try to figure out your audio chain, and what can still remain vs needing to be replaced.

You mention having DSD, Flac, Amazon HD. I’m assuming that is sourced from your PC. What are you connecting your PC to, and using what kind of cable? And what software are you using to play your music - Foobar, JRiver, something else?

What are you using your OPPO-103D for? How is it currently connected? Do you want to keep it plugged into your Denon speaker system and also your new headphone system?

Is your Denon receiver used for AV/movies, surround sound music or just for 2 channel music, connected to 2 speakers? The Denon is a good receiver for AV, and you should keep it for that use.

I’m wondering what are you currently using as a DAC right now, in particular to process the DSD files. I don’t think the Denon processes DSD, and if that’s the case, is something in your chain converting DSD to PCM?

Guys, is DSD playback key to the eventual solution? I don’t have any DSD files, so I don’t know if Cyan69 has to buy a DSD-capable DAC (e.g. the Schiit DACs don’t process DSD) or if something like Foobar can automatically convert DSD to PCM, in which case any DAC can be used.

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Will do, thanks.

20 char.

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Of all the modern formats, DSD seems to be the least common, and is often stored on some optical media. When I want to test DSD capability, I have to go out of my way to find a DSD file. IFi’s products are generally able to handle DSD. @Cyan69, how much DSD content do you really have?

@PaisleyUnderground makes a reasonable point about the software you are using to play from your PC. I’ll give others that have more experience with various players a chance to debug. You might consider a trial subscription to ROON because it has an excellent player and EQ capability.

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As I said earlier, in my humble opinion, I would keep the Sundara, which you already like, and upgrade from the Denon to a new DAC/amp. Get used to the sound of that combination, decide what you like and dislike, and that will make it easier to figure out later on if you need to upgrade the Sundara. You are likely to keep the new DAC/amp for a very very long time, which will allow you to either focus on upgrading headphones, or if you decide you’re happy with what you have, you might just stop. (I say this theoretically because I don’t appear able to “just stop”).

You mentioned that you might spend up to $2000, so if you have that kind of budget, I would consider one of these options (in no particular order):

  1. RME ADI-2 DAC (normally $1149 but appears to be on sale today for $919). This is a one box (DAC and amp) solution that can decode DSD from your PC if that’s really important to you. It’s unlikely, but if you ever buy headphones in the future that are difficult to drive, you can always supplement this with an extra amp. Read this very interesting thread for more info. At the beginning, Torq and others rave about the DAC and say the amp isn’t quite as good, but later on, it appears that RME upgraded the amp, and Torq has recommended it as an all-in-one solution. B&H have a 30 day return policy.

  2. Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC and Asgard 3 amp ($900). For the same price, I’m guessing from what you’ve said that this combo will give you the “emotional” sound signature you’re looking for. I have Bifrost 2 and Lyr 3, which is highly musical but more expensive, but I think swapping out the Lyr 3 for the Asgard 3 amp will suit you very well for rock. The only downside is that the Bifrost 2 doesn’t process DSD, so you would have to continue to use the Oppo to feed it PSM. Schiit has a 15 day return policy, with a small restocking fee.

  3. Schiit Modius DAC and Asgard 3 amp ($400). If you want something a lot cheaper than the above, then this combo works together well, based on reviews (I haven’t heard them myself but others on the forum have). Remember that hi fi has diminishing returns as the price rises, so just because the above 2 choices are twice are expensive, they are not twice as good.

I mentioned 2 Schiit combos because I’m familiar with their products, and I’ve been researching the Asgard as something I might buy for my son. I’m sure others will supplement the list with other manufacturers that are just as good as Schiit.

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It sounds to me that you have already decided you want to keep your current electronics and just do a headphone upgrade.

Most of the responses are recommending you change your electronics, which you are ignoring.

Seems like a disconnect in the whole discussion.

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Thank you. You are exactly correct. I’m going to try using what I do at work, PROCESS to try and help. @Cyan69, and others, let’s try to play along.

So this is the 5 point process from work (Edward Jones)

  1. Where am I Today?
  2. Where do I want to be?
  3. Can I get there?
  4. How do I get there?
  5. How do I stay on track?

———

  1. Where you are today

You are using electronics that you like, but from what I understand, you feel something is lacking. Several here that know the receiver you use have pointed out the weakness, specifically, of the headphone output on that equipment.

We have asked you about your software, and you have not responded to that. You have described a process of downloading files to a flash drive for your music. We do not know where you get the files, or what quality, but if you use DSD, some of us suspect they are movie or DVD related as this is where most DSD is found.
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@NickZ, @bpcarb, @PaisleyUnderground, @Tchoupitoulas, others please jump in, referencing the process step. @Cyan69, please try to address this clearly and concisely

  1. Where do you want to be?
    This is the point that @NickZ says there is a disconnect. You know that headphones make the MOST difference, and you have some well-regarded headphones that you like. You have a budget in mind. You already understand that cables should be good quality but the last area in which to sink big bucks. You have defined Rock as a preference,
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    We need a timeframe. I suggest not being hasty. We know that you will want to try at least one or two other headphones,

  2. Can I get there?
    This is possibly the easiest point. Yes, with $2000 almost certainly. But as the White Rabbit pointed out to Alice, “If you don’t care where you are going, then any road will do.”.

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  3. How do I get there?
    Several of us have suggested that you may need to swap out some pieces in order to find out what’s not working. As far as I can see, the pieces may be:

    • Your Software
    • Your Receiver’s headphone output
    • Your headphones

We don’t know about your software.

Several of us have suggested $200-400 in DAC and AMP. This is the process of swapping out your headphone jack, which several regard as problematical. It is within your budget, and if it’s not the right first step, you can always resell the equipment,

Your headphones. We don’t know exactly what you think you are missing (steps 1 and 2). Headphones have the potential to be the most expensive part of your budget. And if we are not certain about how they are being driven, you can’t make a rational decision about which ones to try. That’s one reason that I suggest taking your time, and seeing about the issue of driving the headphones properly.

  1. How do I stay on track?
    Keep asking questions. Try to eat the elephant one bite at a time. Ask one or two concise, burning questions, perhaps using the crutch of bullet points to focus us on your concern.

Hope this helps!

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This is an excellent, invaluable post. This is advice we would all do well to follow. And if ever there were to be a thread dedicated to distilling the best advice for the hobby, this should be on it. It really is important to be systematic, logical, and clear-sighted about investing in the hobby, especially when doing so involves a significant outlay.

I’ll give more thought to what @pennstac has said here in relation to your previous posts, @Cyan69. But one idea springs immediately to mind: given your $2000 budget, you do not need to sell your receiver to upgrade your system. You can have the best of both worlds, keeping the receiver and still buying other, additional stuff. In other words, you are in the fortunate position of being able to upgrade by adding equipment and not replacing or substituting it. You don’t have the sweat the decision about getting rid of something you like for something you may not. This should make the decisions for points 2 and 4 in the above process simpler.

It is perfectly fine to keep hold of a piece of equipment, like your receiver, if it’s something you love and continue to enjoy using. I have two old minidisc players that are unquestionably outdated, esoteric tech. I’m attached to them for nostalgic reasons. They give me pleasure, and I use them from time to time, even though my other gear far surpasses their sound quality. It’s perfectly fine to hold on to gear, like this, for irrational reasons if doing so makes you happy – that’s the whole point of this, after all. But beware of making irrational decisions about investing in future equipment. @pennstac’s advice above is so sage precisely because it keeps us all within the realm of the rational.

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I would like to feel the passion or emotions of each song I listen to

My take is that’s his goal. The equipment is the means to the goal.

Trying to advise someone on what will make them feel a certain way is subjective-squared.

How can you even say what part or parts of the chain are responsible for his perceived lack of emotion? I certainly can’t but maybe the more experienced folks can.