A/V Receivers and which high-end headphones "if any" will sound best for it's purpose?

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That’s why we - @Cyan69 needs to use process. It’s clear that he is looking at a hardware solution to his goal. Perhaps he needs to define his goal in a way that we can better understand and address it.

Otherwise the solutions might be chemical, physiological, behavioral. Maybe he’s listening to the wrong kind of music? Perhaps a game of volleyball would be a better idea? I’m keeping it clean.

More to the point, some headphones have V shaped responses, others don’t. Perhaps EQ will fix the issue. Note the process step 1, What’s his software? Does it have EQ? Does he know how to use it? That’s even before step 2.

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Given these quotes, I think it’s a psychological solution:

EQ or nostalgia.

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I agree with you, we can’t say for sure. It’s all guesswork, based on very little data. As @pennstac so eloquently said, we need more data.

Changing something in the current chain and reporting back with the results will help, even if that change resulted in something that sounds worse. @Cyan69 could change the headphone (which is already pretty good) or the electronics (which was designed primarily to drive speakers for AV, not headphones).

Without any more data, logic tells us that it is likely the electronics that need changing first, to give us a baseline. But there is always the chance that he loves the sound of the Denon headphone amp, which is totally fine. But we’ll be continuously guessing in the dark until @Cyan69 tries something and gives us feedback.

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This 5-point process roadmap as applied to audio is invaluable.

  1. How do I get there?

Based on the current system and available budget, I recommend building an alternative system (i.e., keep the existing system for the time being).

Alternative system A (DSD capable): buying DSD capable isn’t necessary given the existing system, but would allow for selling the existing DSD gear in the future if desired. Buy a DSD capable DAC (or DAC/amp combo with a line out) such as RME, iFi, Chord. Buy a headphone amp such as the ones recommended above, subject to tube amp discussion below. I own and like Schiit amps.

Alternative system B (non-DSD capable): under this alternative, using the existing system will be necessary for DSD playback. Buy a non-DSD capable DAC (or DAC/amp combo with a line out) such as Schiit Modius or Bifrost 2. Buy a headphone amp such as the ones recommended above, subject to tube amp discussion below.

The emotional aspect is very important for me also. Some believe this is best delivered with tube amps and the holographic/textured/multi-dimensional presentation. I personally experience this with the DNA Starlett tube amp ($2000 so outside of your current budget). Perhaps look into tube amps such as the Schiit Vali 2, Valhalla 2, Lyr 3, and Feliks Echo.

I recommend focusing on the electronics as the Sundaras aren’t the current weakest link in the chain. I defer to others on what tube amps pair well with the Sundara.

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@bpcarb, I think you also own a Schiit Asgard 3. Would you consider that a solid state alternative to your list of tube amps if @Cyan69 wants a little bit of emotional character in the sound but isn’t ready to go down the tube path yet?

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Yes, I own an Asgard 3. I recommend it as a Class A (ish) solid state amplifier with a "listen to enjoy the music " signature and good power to drive most headphones. Those looking for a reference/uncolored/neutral sound signature or balanced connections should look elsewhere.

@dncnexus wrote up a great review here: Schiit Asgard 3 - Official Thread.

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The Walkman was a game changer for portable music.

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I think that the transistor radio was also.

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I still use basic radio. Bought one of the CCrane jobs. They work very well. The new CCrane3 has bluetooth available so you can dial up the iPhone and connect for far away stations. Everyone needs a good over-the-air radio for emergencies.

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There is diminishing returns with ALL brands, not just Schiit. You get the most bang from your first bucks. Consider hot dogs. You are hungry. The 2 for $1 roller-grill items will feed you efficiently. Up the scale, you get grocery store all beef. Or you could go to 5 Guys or Red Robin and buy a nice big juicy one with all the trimmings for what, $8??

Don’t analyze top pick. Analyze what’s right for you in your budget. I already have entry level, so I’m in the upper mid range - Bifrost 2 and Lyr 3. For me, with my listening habits, the phones I have or am likely to buy, and the current state of my ear training, that’s where I get the best deal.

But I’d go in a heartbeat for the entry level stack if I had nothing.

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In response to your mention of rhythm, Schiit products at every price-point generally sound good. Some refer to this quality as rhythm, musical, PRAT. The other end of the spectrum generally are products that measure well and are considered to have a more reference/analytical/uncolored sound signature – the Schiit products in this category are generally considered to be the Heresy, Modius, and Magnius.

I like my Bifrost 2 and Asgard 3 stack, and my Modi Multibit and Vali 2 stack. If you’re ready to go deeper into tubes, there’s the Lyr 3 as mentioned (which may pair better with lower impedance/sensitivity planar Sundara cans compared to the output transformerless OTL Valhalla 2).

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Most AVR headphone setups are an afterthought. I have a set of Clears and they sound great on each of my headphone amps. Such an afterthought that the headphone rated power is omitted.

http://pdfstream.manualsonline.com/b/bdb8710b-c6d9-4317-8f12-7788f6d79805.pdf

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Agree, your results are just like mine. I have a Marantz Sr7013 in my HT/TV area and its sounds pitiful driving Clears. About the only AVR I’ve ever heard that sounded actually decent was a Anthem MRX series, but I feel just spending $100 on a Schiit Magni 3 can get you a lot more.

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Sorry for arriving late to this thread.

Cyan69:

If you are sending your music out of the Oppo as a digital signal to the AVR … through coax or optical or HDMI … then the AVR’s DAC is doing the decoding, and on a mid-range AVR of that vintage, the OPPO is almost surely going to do a much better job.

So, given the high-quality DAC in the OPPO-103d … have you tried, or considered, connecting a headphone amp directly to the OPPO?

Just use 2 RCA connectors into the 7.1 “L” and “R” connections, and use the menu to set the output to (+/-) 2-channel stereo if you are playing a multi-channel source.

(However, if you are already using the analog 7.1 connectors to connect the Oppo to the AVR for audio, then you could alternatively connect a headphone amp to the AVR’s “tape out” or “VCR out” connectors.)

How are you sending the DSD and FLAC 192/24 files to the Oppo and/or the Denon AVR ? Nevermind … I see a post … they’re on USB sticks. Plugged into the Oppo, presumably. And you have also tried a PC, which has been noisy. Recommendation: Go back to music on the USB-stick until you get the h/p hardware all set up and working well.

I don’t own the Focal Clears, so based on my own experience I can’t make a recommendation of an amp that works well with the Clears, but from reading a lot of people seem to think the Schiit Asgard is very good and the Lyr 3 is excellent. There are many other choices, of course, but as a starting point for a beginner who doesn’t have a good sense yet of what they really like, Schiit’s a great value and an easy choice.

Some day in the future you could buy a “headphone DAC.” But you don’t NEED that now, the OPPO is very good. So try that.

HTH

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The point on the receivers is that ALL MODERN AVRs WILL HAVE A MEDIOCRE BUILT-IN HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER. (Theoretically there could be some exceptions, but nobody has named any.)

So you should assume that if you plug your headphones into an AVR, they will sound mediocre.

And they have, in fact, not sounded pleasing to you, so far.

So … #1 … You need to buy a headphone amplifier. (More on that later.)

If you are using Oppo’s 7.1 connections to connect to the AVR, then the OPPO DAC is being used. That should be good, as long as you are using the controls to set the output to “2 channel stereo” whenever you want to hear headphones. (A multi-channel signal is not going to sound complete when heard on 2-channel headphones.)

I don’t know why you’re connecting one BluRay player (Sony) to another BluRay player (Oppo), but when audio is involved, the less parts in the chain, the better. So putting the USB-sticks directly into the Oppo is likely to be the best sounding. (But you can test to see if you can hear a difference, once you have all the parts in place & working.)

With your setup, you will want to connect the headphone amp to the AVR’s “VCR out” connectors.

Sorry to hear about your experience with the Focal Clears. Have read good things about the Sundara’s, but have not heard them.

On amps … I think all the Schiit amps are safe choices, and excellent values at their various price points. If you want to go up to $400 to $500, the Jot 2 and Lyr 3 get excellent reviews, and will hold their own if you get into more expensive headphones later on. But the lower-priced Schiit amps are all remarkable values. It mostly comes down to how much you want to spend now.

Good luck!

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Cyan69: By weird & happy chance, I happen to also own an Oppo 203D, just like you do.

Last night I stole it from the family room and connected it to the headphone system in my home office, using the L+R connectors in the Oppo’s 7.1 set of analog audio outs.

Works like a charm.

Sounds great on headphones. I tested:

  • BluRays,
  • DVDs,
  • (edit/add): SACD
  • CDs,
  • FLACs on a USB-stick:
    • 16-44
    • 24-88
    • 24-96
    • 24-192
    • edit/add: SACD-ISO image did not play

(Caveat: if you listen in stereo to a 5.1 mix without downmixing it, that usually does not sound great. Avatar BluRay 3D, I’m talking 'bout you. But the Avatar DVD sounds excellent.)

So if you get a headphone amp, you can certainly use a similar setup to test any headphone+amp gear you have.

For a permanent setup, if you need to keep the Oppo in the AudioVideo system AND use it for headphone listening, without the pain of moving cables every time you switch from multi-channel audiovideo to headphones, you could use a Schiit SYS ($49) as the switcher for the main L+R signals.

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No. Not at the moment, as of last night. The headphone station and the multi-channel system are at different ends of the house. I moved a non-audiophile blu-ray player from TV#2 to TV#1 so we can watch & listen to movies on the movie system.

We keep saying this, and you keep on not hearing this … if you want excellent sound out of your headphones … any decent headphones … you CANNOT USE THE AMP IN THE AVR FOR THE HEADPHONES.

Which is to say … if you want excellent sound out of your headphones … any decent headphones … you CANNOT USE THE AMP IN THE AVR FOR THE HEADPHONES.

Or in other words … If you want excellent sound out of your headphones … any decent headphones … you CANNOT USE THE AMP IN THE AVR FOR THE HEADPHONES. (I lied, those are the same words.)

YOU NEED TO BUY A DEDICATED HEADPHONE AMP.
YOU NEED TO BUY A DEDICATED HEADPHONE AMP.

And with your existing equipment, your best connection, IMO, is:

Oppo 203D L+R analog RCA out ==> Schiit SYS ==> (out1) ==> Denon AVR for movies ==> speakers
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .==> (out2) ==> Headphone Amp ==> headphones

What headphone amp? There are many good choices. But since you are asking me, I’d recommend the Schiit Jot 2 at $399. You can certainly get cheaper, but that might be the only headphone amp you’ll ever need. It’s clean, powerful, and flexible.

Before you spend more on different mid- or high-end headphones, you need a headphone amp. Lack of an amp is what is holding your system back. That’s the weakest link. Deal with that next.

re the Rolls EQ570 Audio Equalizer or the Bellari PA550 Preamplifier … you’re worrying about the cuff-links when you don’t have a suit. I’ve been reading headphone forums (plural) for several years, and I don’t recall either of those units ever being discussed. They may be very competent for their designed purpose, but neither is a direct fit for your need, as an aspiring headphone freak. You need a headphone amp, so get a good, name brand headphone amp.

Most headphone people don’t use something like the Oppo as their DAC, they get a DAC-in-a-box. (Or, sometimes, a combo unit with a DAC and headphone amp.) But the Oppo’s DAC and audio circuitry is very good, so as long as it keeps working you don’t really need to buy another DAC. Having the Oppo is an unconventional piece of a headphone setup, but you’d have to spend a fair amount of money to get an appreciable improvement over the DAC in the Oppo, IMO. (That’s assuming that having your A/V multi-channel system and your headphone system tied together works for the whole family.)

HTH - Doug

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Cyan69:

You seem understandably frustrated.

You asked: Does the price-point on a headphone amplifier change how the sound quality will be effected?

A: Well yes, to some degree, but twice as much money doesn’t get you twice as much sound quality. Maybe 5-10% closer to perfection, and more features. There’s good gear available at reasonable prices.

I wasn’t aware that you had already tried some headphone amps. Sorry if you had already told us that, and I missed it.

But that new (to me) info does change things. With the gear you have tried … headphones, amps, and a DAC … you SHOULD have heard things that were reasonably high on the “sounds good, makes me happy” scale … and yet, that has not happened.

Hmmmm. [think think.]

In your shoes, I would try to set up the simplest possible path for testing purposes, with the goal of eliminating as many possible problems as possible, and once I’d gotten that working, try to transfer the magic into the more complex system. And the biggest complexity I see is the Denon AVR, mainly because it’s multi-channel. So for testing purposes, we don’t want that in the headphone system.

Can you reborrow the CMA 400i ???

If so …

(1) connect the OPPO 203D BluRay player to the CMA 400i, using the digital coax (preferrably) or optical if you don’t have a “digital” coax cable. (Note that a coax cable LOOKS like an RCA cable, but an RCA cable may not have the bandwidth to work perfectly. Order a new one if there’s any question about what you have … the Amazon Basics cable is good & cheap, and quick to get … https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Digital-Audio-Compatible-Coaxial/dp/B01D5H8TS4. Note also that optical cables are fairly fragile. Amazon Basics has those too.)

(2) plug in one of your sets of headphones

(3) play a CD, either something you know well and enjoy, or something that’s been described as being a notably good recording in terms of sound quality.

(4) Listen.

That SHOULD work. You SHOULD hear good stuff.

If it does, try playing 2-channel tunes off of your USB-stick. Some 16-44 and some higher resolution files. If all those work, you’ve eliminated the file formats and the source (player) as the cause of the troubles you’ve had.

Then listen to a BluRay or DVD with multi-channel sound. How does that sound? I would assume “probably not good” initially, as I don’t think the CMA 400i will handle a 5.1 format. So use the Oppo’s controls to set (approx) “downmix to 2-channel.” (That’s an option in the menus, under Speaker Setup.) Hopefully, that gets back to good sound.

Next, I’d like you to try to use the Oppo’s DAC (instead of the CMA 400i’s), but it appears that the CMA 400i has only digital inputs, so can’t do that.

2nd thought: did you borrow the CMA 400i from someone close enough to visit easily? If so, go to his place, and take some headphones, the Oppo, a couple of reference CDs, and some cables with you. Listen with his gear with your headphones … they work right? Then connect your Oppo to his CMA 400i, and listen to your headphones again. Does that work?

If so, I’m back to where I was with my previous post, that you need a headphone amp, and then get it connected up correctly with your AVR system in a way that doesn’t get your 2-channel music signal split into unlistenable 5.1 or mangled into faux-surround.

That’s the minimum. Alternatively, you could also get an external DAC, or an integrated DAC+Amp like the CMA 400i.

This doesn’t have to be expensive, which is part of the reason I recommended the Schiit Jot 2. The Robert Neve is reportedly good, and so is the Questyle CMA 400i. Any of those SHOULD be a very solid part of a starting headphone system. (The Klipsch Heritage Headphone Amp is a model I haven’t heard/read anything about.)

HTH. It’s not supposed to be so hard.

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I guess it would be good to understand what didn’t you like about the things you tried. I don’t quite understand what the goal is tbh. Is there a reason why you want to power headphones out of a speaker amp? Is it for convenience? Are you looking to move to headphone amps?

There are some tube amps that also do well as headphone amps. Check out ampsandsound if you have efficient enough speakers that you can use tubes. Based on what you’ve listed as your gear though, I don’t think it’s worth reusing in your headphone chain. It’ll be much easier to get something specific for headphones.

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Cyan69

1h

The seller told me that he was surprised that someone was even interested in DACs and headphone amplifiers

That should be a clue he didn’t have much knowledge of headphones and their gear. Granted, it’s a niche, but you know there’s some cohort of people who are interested, and there are even specialty shops who focus on headphone gear. (The sponsor of this forum would be a conspicuous & close example.)

All of these things that I’ve mentioned and tried out have left me wondering… If its true that price might matter when looking into something like an end game headphone amplifier?

Of course price matters for “end game” gear.

Which is not to say that if you just plop down the credit card to buy the most expensive thing on the market, you’ll be happy. But in general, more expensive gear is better than inexpensive gear. Same for cars, and houses, and wine, and restaurants. In all of those examples, you can find really good values at varying price levels, but chances are small that something at the lowest 10th percentile of prices will be above the 95th percentile of performance. It’s exactly the same with amplifiers.

Because so-far I’ve watched many reviews, read endless threads of information, and are taking risks…Does anyone know if somthing like the Topping L30 is a valuable choice for my headphones (Hifiman Sundara?) One reviewer said the L30 could not power the Sundara. Can anyone confirm this? Should I look into something that costs more (in an headphone amplifier)? Thanks

I haven’t heard the Sundara or the Topping L30, so I’ll refrain from coughing up any partially digested opinions from other people. The Topping at $150 is definitely on the budget end of the price spectrum.

Rather than look at the one negative review that said the Topping L30 could not power the Sundara … look for positive reviews. Here, or on Head-FI, or SBAF, what amps are noted or recommended by 2/3/4/+ people as being a good match with the Sundara?

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