A/V Receivers and which high-end headphones "if any" will sound best for it's purpose?

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From a “Realistic” cassette walkman? Christ, even the best cassette and tape players had audible hiss, (it’s a feature of the medium) never mind budget, portable Tandy/Rat-Shack (owners of the “Realistic” brand), shit.

You’re either remembering things that never happened, or conveniently forgetting all the warts.

Keep AVRs out of your stereo music listening chain entirely, doubly so if its via headphones, and that’ll go a long way to helping.

And with that, I shall say no more … for one thing, I can’t take the punctuation anymore (it should be a crime), and b) I am 100% convinced the issues here are not really about gear at all.

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112

No. If that was true, either your ears were broken, or you did not know about hiss. Back then I had a fairly decent tape recorder, and 7.5 inches per second (Ian’s was, I’m sure 15 IPS or more, eh @Torq ?) reduced hiss a lot. When Dolby came along in helped, but you still had hiss on a cassette at 1.75 inches per second on a very thin tape. At least it didn’t clunk clunk like 8 tracks.

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On the “bright” side, this entire exchange has been highly educational. It makes one type of audiophile logic very clear.

In the 1990s, when CDs were strong and when MP3s were new, I was offered a nice component stereo cassette deck at a giveaway price. I said no, as it would be bulky clutter that I’d never use. Cassette sound quality was…competitive with 128 kbps MP3s…

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In the 80’s when there really were only 2 formats LP and Cassette (ignoring reel to reel), there were some serious Cassette Decks, with some quite clever work arounds for the formats short comings.

The biggest of which were head alignment, there was no guarantee that the recording head was even aligned reasonable when the tape was recorded, and alignment could vary during a recording. So you had solutions like the Nakamichi Dragon that uses two head to measure time alignment between tracks, and continually adjust playback alignment to match the recording alignment.
Various “Metal” tape record/playback options that did more or less what RIAA does for LP’s, i.e. applies Frequency compensation when recording then reverses it out when playing.

But even with all that it’s a format with very limited bandwidth, a very high noise floor and one that degrades with every play.

I think there is a tendency for people to just get nostalgic, I still remember listening to mine and my friends first Hifi systems in our dorm rooms, and I have a lot of nostalgia for the material we listened to back then. Occasionally I dig up something obscure I enjoyed at the time and realize just how terrible the recording really was.

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115

The one I had at home could do 15 IPS, though it was selectable (7.5, 3.75 and 1.875 IPS on top of the 15).

I know what you’re saying …

Though I’d think that, noise and upper frequency range not withstanding, I’d rather listen to the recordings done on my old Denon DRM-800A and Nakamichi on decent TDK metal tape w/ Dolby C (or S) and HX Pro.

…

Towards the end of that period, I remember DCC … which was a bizarre thing. It fixed the hiss issue (well, the TAPE HISS issue) due to being digital, but it used relatively primitive perceptual (lossy) encoding (PASC - which got subsumed into MPEG Audio Layer-1 I believe).

I think it was intended as a cheaper alternative to DAT, along with being intended as a pre-recorded distribution format not just a recording medium.

It’s major flaw was that … it was shite.

While the frequency range was respectable, it was limited to 384kb/s (sounds like it should be equivalent to high-bit-rate MP3 … BUT encoders were a) not as sophisticated as they are today, and b) the encoding model itself is far less capable than MP3) so noise and FR excepted, it really only addressed hiss.

And then it was much fiddlier to use, significantly more expensive, and while simpler and cheaper than DAT … DAT was lossless. Having SCMS didn’t help matters … and was probably a significant factor in it dying off quickly.

Plus … MiniDisc was MUCH cooler and WAY more robust, even if not any better sounding.

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118

I saw, in another thread, that you said you were a vegetarian. In which case, and in all seriousness, get your protein levels checked - low protein intake levels (a risk with predominantly herbivorous diets) are highly correlated with hearing issues and deterioration (not just hearing loss).

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119

I’d venture that 99% of cassettes were played on cheap decks through budget Sony/Koss/Bose/etc. headphones, or on period-correct budget paper cone speakers, or on plasticy boom-box speakers. Few people respected cassettes, so MP3s weren’t much different on period hardware. I saw a documentary years ago showing how the music companies used banks of parallel cassette recorders that created, let’s say 1,000, new copies at once and at a high recording speed. Beyond inherent hiss, they suffered from stretch, twisted tapes, magnetic exposure, etc.

The very first generation of PC MP3s in the early 1990s were decoded through soundcards and sounded like bad FM or good AM radio – they made tons of static and noise going through my old Soundblaster 16. However, they were a huge step up from the prior boob-boop MIDI digital files. MP3s improved dramatically (to compete with cassettes) with direct digital decoding and as the algorithms matured.

I was a CD buyer in that era, and saw DCC as a “Huh? What were they thinking? Tapes are always fragile, slow, and horrible technology.”

Yeah, it caught on as an early recordable in the spirit of CDs. Some users were passionate about MiniDisc. It was a key transitional technology leading to the iPod as mini hard drives and solid-state storage got cheaper.

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image750×750 58 KB

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121

I’ve had this credit card design for several years. It receives far-and-away a greater reaction than any other card I’ve owned. Those with experience instantly recognize it and smile, while others perceive the white stripe as the magnetic card stripe and insert it backwards into the card reader.

Discover Cassette
Discover Cassette2504×1622 372 KB

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123

This again?

You have asked the same question several times over the last few years, and as good members wanting to help and contribute folks have posted trying to help. Yet you choose to ignore and ask again, whether that is hoping for a different response or a misunderstanding in what is being relayed is a mystery.

I have an Arcam AVR, they were known to be one of the better AVRs for music in addition to being decent at home theater although can be finicky with surround sound formats. It has a headphone output, I have tried it with a variety of headphones, and they all sound like utter shite. Why? Because it’s a gratuitous add-on, and it doesn’t matter the source feeding it, it’s just plain garbage.

Why have I tried it? Curiosity, and that is all. You would be better served finding a Vintage Stereo Reciver from the 70’s/80’s with a headphone output, from what I understand they had a more robust thought out implementation.

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I must have missed this. PM me and I’ll give you my work number. If you’re in the US, I can help with that. I’m a financial advisor.

Oh wait, you probably weren’t serious.

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126

Like clockwork we are back to this again, you must have been released from your room.

What are you asking here? None of these statements/questions are making any sense

You are assuming this is a zero-sum game, it is not. Yes a headphone output of an AVR will work. Just like a headphone output out of your tv will work, or that headphone output out of the arm on an airplane seat. You can have the world’s best headphones, and changing headphones won’t do a darn thing.
Why am I trying to explain this to you, when others have for the last 4 years, do you have a computer? Does it have speakers? Do those speakers sound good? Yes to all the above you can save yourself the further frustration that seems to creep up every 9 months or so.

You have done nothing but purchase more expensive headphones and you bought two which are similar in driver type. Both of which require a bit more power than the output your Denon will provide from the jack.

Yes you should, read through this whole thread for the suggestions many have provided everytime you ask the same question, expecting someone to answer differently. You know that is how the DSN diagnosis insanity??

Keep on investing until you pass go. Alternative approach, look around the house, around the town you live in for a headphone jack and try everything you possibly can to listen that is not an AVR,

Both are important, to take it up a step change the cables on each and hear what happens.

Lower priced compared to what?

Yes

Which which?

Yes, start from the beginning of the thread and read through. If not satisfied then start at the top once again, repeat the cycle until you find the mystery hidden in plain sight.

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127

What @Roark says, @Cyan69.

I propose a few rules this time around.

  1. Don’t type the word “Receiver” unless you are in the Off Topic talking about a football game.
  2. go to rule 1
  3. Read your posts for clarity before you post them. As yourself if you are asking the questions in a way that will make sense to others.
  4. Read the entire thread over before posting again. Probably you should print it out. Use a marker or highlighter to see what answers you had before. I mean this part. Memory can play tricks.
  5. Review rule 1.
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128

Hmmm. Creepers. Giving those ambush social media channels ideas?

“I’m looking for a jack. Can I plug into your device?”

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129

I wasn’t suggesting they plug their phone or a usb device, people should know better, if they don’t then that’s on them.

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130

Just joking, but a suitable strategy in this case…

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131

Yikes!

@Cyan69 I do have an actual suggestion, and the answer to your question about listening to your headphones in a different way from the Denon is yes!

Check out the threads here regarding the Schiit Ragnarok 2 for $999.99, or add $300 for “fully loaded”. There’s a possible answer for you…

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My message is to the rated R superstar> Which CRYPT did you crawl out of??? The undertaking at hand is> Most of the messages are 4 years in the making…And ARE considered OUTDATED. I’m simply seeking advice on the new DAN CLACK E3 headphone pairing> to a DAC and/or headphone amplifier???Which is the most important and I am NOT seeking a computer set-up. There, are we clear?? THANKS to all… and I “DO APPRECIATE” non-bias help from others. I’ve tried different gear. I’ve read. And researched. No-one has been blown away by ANY sound quality, from the SOUNDS of what I have heard through forums, reviews, and youtube. And if the sound is that good. I would love it if in 2024> I can acqiure the knowledge sought after. :upside_down_face: :large_blue_diamond:

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It is understandable that people get a little frustrated when this thread resurfaces, as it has a habit of doing so.

Most of the messages in this thread are not outdated, they are still 100% relevant to the questions asked in this thread.

In that case, I suggest that you don’t post the question in this thread as this thread is about your AVR.

Head over to the “General Purchase Advice” thread and post a question there asking about suggested DAC and/or Amp pairings for the E3.

Please, please, don’t bring up the AVR subject in the General Purchase thread as it will just lead us all back here again and the same frustration will return all over again :slight_smile:

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134

And from the Pee rated superstar, who can be found in row 1 of Mystery Theater 3000, Science and physics are not outdated, unless you are a student of the strong force affecting quarks and gluons.

At least half of the advice is trying to help you find a better manner of thinking about the problem. That is not outdated, but often ignored. And I was the person who suggested you print out, study and highlight the last 4 years, @Roark (who has his own problems, thinking that “Punisher” = Cthulhu, but who will never be nearly as scary as the original) just suggested you look it over.

Anything that pertains to equipment that you have abandoned is outdated.

Now here is an answer to your question. First, and I think you’re OK on this, you should not confuse a combined DAC/AMP with separates. You need to think Digital source > DAC > AMP > Headphones. If you want to go down a rabbit hole, you can think of cables, but don’t.

This pattern from source to headphones (or your ears, and brain after headphones) will have certain synergies. Improvements or changes to one part will affect how you perceive or how the rest of the path works. Nobody hear likes to give simple answers, because we always think of this synergy. Obviously if the recording is bad and the rest of the chain is great, it will expose how bad the recording is.

Now I’ll give the simple answer. Headphones are most important. Probably should be about half of your budget. The complex thing is that as you know, not all headphones work with all sources, and it pays to think first about your total budget and what you want to accomplish. Some headphones can work with many chains, others will be highly finicky and will only work well with some components. So it makes a big difference if you want to upgrade over time or buy all at once as to what your reasonable choices are.

SECOND would be the amp, or the AMP section of a DAC/AMP. This is because the top culprit for synergy is between the amp and the headphones. The safest amp is a relatively powerful solid state or tube hybrid amp. This style will work with more headphones than most others. After you outgrow a good amp in this category, you’ll be buying multiple amps for specific uses.

THIRD is the DAC, or DAC section of a combined DAC/AMP. This is way down the line. Unless you have the amp and headphone right, you probably won’t hear much difference between a $10 DAC and a $5000 DAC. However, if the HEADPHONE is properly resolving, and you have a decent amp, then you will hear differences. Your Dan Clark is capable of resolving differences. The things in a DAC that you hear will be detail, and soundstage first. Instruments will be placed more precisely and more easily identified. IMPORTANT (and impertinent) - You will have to TRAIN YOUR EARS AND HEARING to reliably detect this. I strongly suggest going to live music - especially small acoustic or lower volume jazz, folk, country, or chamber concerts to listen carefully to how it is supposed to sound.

I hope this is helpful to you.

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