A/V Receivers and which high-end headphones "if any" will sound best for it's purpose?

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I asked this ahile ago in the “Purchase Advice” thread and never saw an answer:
How/Why are you “stuck with” the AVR when you have a perfectly good Ifi amp?

Not quite, at least for me. Besides my question above, the obvious question of what you’re using for your source seems relevant. Per @pennstac’s model above,

while I agree with him that (usually) headphones are most important, if your chain is something like
32 kbit AAC > AVR internal DAC > AVR headphone output > DCA E3, well, the headphones can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

@Cyan69, (1) what’s your source, and (2) why aren’t your using your Ifi?

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Pennstac, I have no idea what you are talking about here? Since this thread is going in circles, a detour into what this line means will be far more entertaining than the definition of insanity we get sucked into every 6-9 months. So please elaborate :grin:

I have never heard of a DAN CLACK E3, is this some special headphone made for only AVR use? You don’t need a computer, if I indicated that, my apologies. I will use a variety of sources from vinyl, CD, to digital files. 2/3 of these can be connected to a DAC, and that can be connected to an amplifier.

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Forget the DCA E3, even my $300 HD-600 is unlistenable on many low-end sources. This includes the atrocious headphone output of my own AVR. I said “How can such a heavy thing sound so much worse than my iPad?”

Think balance and bottlenecks. I used to agree with @pennstac about putting 50% of the budget to the headphones, but these days my amp is >50% my daily-driver system cost. No regrets, and no pressing desire to upgrade the DAC or drivers either. There’s a fair case to be made for spending 1/3rd on the DAC, 1/3rd on the amp, and 1/3rd on the drivers. The key is to spend up to the point of diminishing returns with each component, given a budget.

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You’re right, @generic and @Lou_Ford which is why I hesitated to put down budget numbers. Obviously the entire chain synergy is important, and it’s hard using the philosopher’s sock approach. Where you keep patching holes until you have an entirely different sock. My suggestion was for a pre-thought out chain.

@generic I always seem to forget about the headphone out from my iPad. but yeah, they do a creditable job with it for easy to drive headphones. Even my Grado RS1e sounds OK out of it. Oh wait, that was my old iPad Air… And the 9th gen iPad I got for Mom. All the new stuff needs a dongle.

Now for the important part, @Roark , I read your icon as one of those modern representations post Pirates of the Caribbean, probably Marvel Comics “The Punisher” who uses a similar sort of face skull mask image. All of these are derived from the H.P. Lovecraft stories of Cthulhu an ancient evil elder God, often associated with the sea, and having squid-like tentacles below the head. Sometimes drawn with very large ones. The Lovecraft cycle is a wonderful dark rabbit hole to fall into. You’ll be looking for Miskatonic University bumper stickers before long.

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I see now, unfortunately you are partially correct, it’s an homage to Mack Bolan who’s character inspired the comic book character Frank Castle which is a Marvel comic, yet from the 1980’s
While popularized in more recent years by various groups/individuals , for reasons beyond my understanding given the characters story lines (both Mack Bolan and Frank Castie), it’s been one of my favorite book and comic series since I was in middle school. Along with Daredevil of course.

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And the Lovecraft stories date to the 1920s and are periodically taken up and expanded on by writers such as Robert Bloch both pre and post WW2. Also August Derelith and Fritz Lieber. So the Cthulhu mythos was well established in the 1960s and still actively being expanded in the 80s when some of the Marvel writers took note. It’s all a big club, nobody is denying membership…

If you haven’t read any of the originals, you really should.

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This is interesting. When you say music files and music videos, I wonder if that’s a clue. Some music videos have pretty good audio - I’m thinking of come concert CD and DVDs I’ve bought in the past. Even documentary movies - like Ramona Diaz’ “Don’t Stop Believin’: Everyman’s Journey” have some pretty good audio. But I question the standard capabilities of YouTube videos (premium may be better) and most stuff produced for commercial TV videos where the video was the focus and not the audio.

I don’t use the TV audio out (or optical out) for any really high quality sound. It’s fine for my limited home theater - sound bar and sub, but it’s not top quality.

Blue Ray is technically pretty good, and IF the music producer who did the movie or video was too, I would fully expect a digital out (optical, coax, or USB) to the iFi Micro iDSD Signature would give a significantly better sound.

Perhaps you’re hearing some EQ applied by the LOKI in one chain but not the other? With the iFi, there isn’t an easy way to add the analog EQ (It already has xBASS) you get with the Loki. You could just jigger up a patch cord of RCA to whatever female connector you use for the cable you are using with the E3. You should then be able to apply the LOKIs EQ directly to the RCA output from the iFI.
Something like this:
Hosa Stereo Breakout Adapter 1/4" TRS female to dual RCA male at Crutchfield

You could alternatively not use the LOKI and see if the sound is still what you want.
Note to others, I looked up the Dan Clark E3, and it’s a 27 ohm Planar with 90 db/mw rated sensitivity. I can’t see any reason that it wouldn’t pair well with the iFi.

@Cyan69 , what I’m trying to do is trace back based on what’ you’re telling me. What, EXACTLY do you mean by

We need clarity in order to help. Is the problem volume? Does it sound muddy, or are the high notes piercing or missing? Exactly what are you hearing that’s different?

When I’m tracing the chain in both directions we get to on the left …
SOURCE - quality of recording, capability of the device sending digital signals to your iFi

and, to be completely honest, on the RIGHT
YOU- Your ears. HRTF (Head related transfer function) How the sound is perceived by you. How you interpret that.

So that’s what I’m hoping to figure out. And I’m sure that what other people are too.

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I am a little confused about this chain.

You are saying that you connect the Loki Mini + to the headphones?

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You know that’s right - I missed how that was connected too - the Denon has a pre-out so the Loki could be placed there and go into an AUX IN.

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But usually the Pre-Out follows the main output that is selected, so it would be outputting whatever was coming out of the headphone output.

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To cut to the chase after four years and 126 messages in this tread: Use a device designed for the headphone audio task. AVRs do a fine job of producing surround sound for films and video. They aren’t very good at anything else.

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I think there is something that you like in the signal processing that your Denon is doing, and that hearing this is over-riding some other considerations in your brain. Causing a bias toward what is familiar.

I like your comment about the E3 sounding like your Hifiman Arya only closed. When I looked up the E3, I thought it might sound similar to my Hifiman HE-560 v2, only closed. Sort of a reality check for me, as I am trying to help not having the AVR or your headphones.

When you stream to your iFi, what do you hear with and without the xSpace (or 3D) setting on? I’m listening right now through my iFi xDSD in line out mode (so those settings are not operating - they only work when using as DAC/AMP, not DAC only).

My guess is that with the 3D setting on, you will like the sound just a bit better. If so, your preferences might be something that can be addressed in software.

If the added space or soundstage you hear from the AVR is what makes you find it subjectively better, then the course will be to wean yourself off that combination, get a feel for a more technically “correct” or clean sound, and add in (probably software like ROON or MPP) to add back the effect you like, but in a cleaner and more controlled manner. Something where you can adjust crossfeed.

Possibly listen to some things that are made for Dolby ATMOS and/or Binaural audio (Jean Michael Jarre’s Amazónica). If that is solving your craving tor the kind of sound you like, then we have at least a good starting point and idea what’s up.

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Indeed. DSP is often very, very coarse and aggressive. The older technology was more ‘digital’ and choppy sounding than the newer DSPs too. I hear a digital stair-step effect when using some DSP profiles. Still, sometimes a hard-edged digital transformation comes across as cleaner and less muddy than a nuanced and airy (higher resolution) profile.

I’ve literally struggled for days when adapting to a technically superior or just plain different audio setup–to include weaning myself off an AKM DAC in favor of the Bifrost 2. It often takes one to 48 hours of listening to judge the new setup (and IMO it’s 99% habituation or “brain burn” rather than equipment burn-in).

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We’re certainly making progress now. Some of the issue is that you have not been working on critical listening long enough, and you have not developed the same way of discussing what you hear with others.

Before you look for a Deux Ex Machina - your machine-based headphone nirvana, there is some zero cost work to be done. And I’m not the one to point the way. Others watching this thread will need to help. Here is what I think is needed:

  1. Learn and practice some critical listening skills. There are websites that others have pointed to elsewhere on this forum that can help. HELP OTHERS, DON’T MAKE ME CALL YOU OUT. Pointers to listening skill sites and content please!

  2. Work on your terminology so that you can describe what you’re hearing to us in the way we are used to hearing. Part of the problem over the years is that you describe things your way, and we can’t decode that well. For example, coffee tasters have a specific vocabulary to describe different aspects of coffee. Acid, smooth, fruity, burnt, nutty, floral. There are charts with known beans and flavors. If someone tasted those same things but called them rubbery, olive, lubricated, credenza, puffball, and gross, nobody would have a clue what they were talking about.

  3. Again I need help here. ROON Muse and/or HQPlayer introduction. Would these help deliver in a more precise manner some of the desirable effects that @Cyan69 is looking for without the undesirable limitations of his AVR? Pointers and opinions needed.

Finally, I do have a question - you say that you don’t use your iFi on the E3 or Arya. Why? Most of us would think it’s a pretty good match.

I do have some ideas about mid-priced equipment that might work for you, but I think that there may be software or DSP solutions that are more effective. My point number 3. These would be implemented with your computer streaming to your iFi to your headphones.

And really finally, you did mention that you listen to “audio files” Please be more specific. MP3? Wave? FLAC or ALAC ? Do you know the resolution they were saved in and/or if they are lossless? This may also affect your perceived sound including energy and life.

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They are both graphic equalisers, the difference is that the Behringer has more bands.

Just as a quick note to help differentiate between graphic and parametric equalizers, in simple terms, graphic EQs have fixed bands (adjustment points) whereas Parametric EQs have adjustable bands (adjustment points). There is slightly more to it than that but that is a quick way of differentiating.

I used to have a MINIFBQ and it wasn’t terrible as far sound but wasn’t excellent either. The build quality is rather cheap and the sliders did get noisy after a while. I can’t compare to the Schiit as I haven’t used the Schiit.

What I am still trying to work out is where you are placing the EQ in your headphone set up?

From your previous post, I am understanding that you are going from the output of the Denon to the input of the Loki+, then from the output of the Loki+ with an adapter to the headphones?

Is that how you are connecting things?

If so, then your headphones will make sound but not the sound they are designed to make.

You also mention optical to RCA adapters in a post. I think you are getting a little confused here also. An optical connection is digital, RCA’s are analogue (except digital coax), so an Optical to RCA’s adapter is actually a DAC (digital to analogue converter). If you place this in the chain then that is what is doing the conversion. In other words, that is the DAC that is being used.

The way to connect everything together in a normal chain would be:

DAC output to Equalizer input, Equalizer output to Amplifier input, Amplifier output to Headphones.

With the iFi Micro iDSD I don’t think it has an analogue input (please someone correct me if I am wrong as I don’t have one), so there is no way to place the Equalizer between the Denon and the iFi.

My suggestion would be to either go from the Denon optical output to the iFi optical input and then from the iFi headphone output to the headphones (but you can’t use the Schiit).

Or

From the Denon optical output to the iFi optical input, from the iFi line output (RCAs on the back) to the Schiit Loki input, from the Schiit Loki output to a headphone amplifier (which you don’t have at the moment and need to buy or borrow) and then the headphone output of the amplifier to the headphones.

Both of the above methods are considering that you want to use the Denon as a source (to play BluRay etc).

Both of these chains should give you a better result that what you have at the moment, if I am understanding correctly how you connect it at the moment.

Again, how are you connecting the Loki to the headphones? Are you plugging the headphones into the Loki?

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EQ will not improve soundstage unless there is something very very wrong, which I doubt is the case. I don’t use my Loki anymore, I find that 4 bands aren’t enough, but the Lokius - 6 bands is quite helpful.

In ROON, it’s not the EQ that I was suggesting tweaking, but something that lets you play with crossfeed. And the HQPlayer - well that can do a lot, but like you, I have little patience for tweaking endless parameters in software.

YOU MAY NOT FIND what you’re looking for. Hardware has its own set of drawbacks. One of the keys to good sound seems to be maintaining the right time-phase relationships. Some hardware and hardware effects can really screw with that. I don’t know enough. This is @Torq, @Resolve and @Lou_Ford territory.

I see that Schiit has an analog domain surround sound processor. It’s clearly NOT designed for headphones, but possibly you could aim some DAC output through it to get effects you want. I’d trust what they do more than some other brands.

The other thing is to consider items designed to play and take advantage of ATMOS Spatial Audio. It’s not really my cup of tea, but it sounds like some of the effect you are looking for.

I still think that ear training will help. Or make things much worse. Once you learn to identify stuff, it’s hard to unhear things. I pointed this out in a different domain, Typography, in a post here long ago.

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I’m really stuck on this statement. Like @SenyorC I can’t figure out how you’ve got the Loki connected to your Denon AVR. @Cyan69, can you post some pictures of how these things are connected? That would be much better than us guessing at things that don’t seem to make much sense.

I don’t think there is an optical output on the Denon AVR-X2700H, another reason I’m requesting pictures (>1000 words and all that as well).

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Was this appendix-style EQ? Connected to an unused signal path? Car buyers love their go-fast stripes, go-fast hood vents, blocked-up hood scoops, and exhaust tips that fork from 1 to 2.

Back panel of the Denon AVR-X2700H for deep thoughts and speculation:

image
image1500×578 142 KB

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As proven by the photo from @generic, neither of my options would work lol.

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That is going to brutalize your signal quality. It’ll be akin to a faded photograph versus looking at an object in person.

Years ago I messed around adding stuff to the tape loop I/O on my receiver. I could get some very weird stuff to happen, and hear audio output from wires where output should not have been produced. When taken to intentional shorting and ad-hoc modification this is known as ‘circuit bending.’

The output adapter is a functional circuit bender. It may sound as good as a $10 Ebay special…maybe…