My favorite performance is the RCA Red Label Toscanini version - came in a boxed set. The most famous DG one is the 1962 Karajan, but I am used to the Bernstein version from the 1980s, one of the first DDD CDs. The Seji Ojiwa is also great (Decca)
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Iâm a fan of his music in total. Thereâs just so much to sort through. Been listening to some of his lesser known works and those are great too. I have the string quartet cycle done by Takacs but I havenât examined it properly. Thanks for your suggestions. I will look in to them.
Right now Iâm trying to pick out what sounds best to me and just appreciate it.
My digital copy is a 62-63 DG with the BPO. It has served me well even though Iâm branching out. Iâll check for the Toscanini and Ojiwa. Thanks.
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Iâm replying here to a post by @MrCypruz in the Now Playing thread about how to listen to classical music. I didnât want to derail that discussion. Since @perogie kindly mentioned me in a reply to that post, and to give you some suggestions, MrCypruz, I thought Iâd share a couple of answers, for what theyâre worth. My apologies for diverting readers away from ongoing discussions in this thread but this reply felt like a better fit here.
Iâm reluctant to answer your question because I donât have a sophisticated ear for classical music or much knowledge about it, and you may well have a far superior appreciation of it than me. So, the following is what Iâd recommend to anyone new to classical music.
I wouldnât worry too much about âhowâ to listen to classical music. Just enjoy it! As with any kind of music, it can be enjoyed on multiple levels, and you can delve as deeply down into these levels as you find rewarding and satisfying. Itâs perfectly fine just to appreciate a piece of music because you love the melody, or because it matches the mood youâre in, or simply because it transports you somewhere happy. In other words, you donât have to engage with it critically or think self-consciously about it as you listen, although that is a certainly a pleasure as well.
I donât like subscribing to the notion that one kind of music is superior to another - this gets into thorny questions of definitions and discussions about the purpose of music - and Iâm uncomfortable asserting or reinforcing distinctions between âhighâ and âlowâ culture. This isnât the place for a fraught conversation about what culture is. My opinion - and it is only that, just an opinion - is that a good deal of music functions on both simple and complex registers and that a lot of classical music can provide more complexity thanks to its scale and ambition and sheer number of instruments and arrangements. I donât think itâs controversial to say that youâre more likely to hear new things, on multiple listens, in an hour-long Shostakovich symphony than in a four-minute rock song.
I mention all this because classical music can be intimidating for newcomers who worry that, on top of the enormous amount of new music to discover, theyâre supposed to have a refined palette to appreciate it properly. Again, you can delve as deeply as you like.
Thereâs a shifting line, for me, when it comes to putting in the time and effort to appreciate classical music. For some pieces I want to listen more studiously than others, and on some days I just want to have fun. Iâve not had the time - or the concentration - recently for classical music and Iâm weeks behind on this thread. A single piece of orchestral music takes time to enjoy. When I hear something for the first time and find that I like it, I tend to listen to it over and over again, for as long as it holds my attention, and these repeated listenings enable me to hear new and interesting things. One thing I like to listen for are repetitions and variations of main musical themes.
Hereâs a fun experiment (I hope): listen to the opening âPreludeâ to Wagnerâs opera Tristan und Isolde. (I know this is an opera and not purely orchestral music, but Wagner is famous for his long, mood-setting, and often glorious orchestral preludes that can last as long as a movement in a symphony). Youâll pick out the main theme quickly. Then, once youâve heard it a few times and have become familiar with it, skip to the end of the opera and listen to the final sequence, the famous and rapturous âMild und Leise.â Youâll hear a beautiful counterpart to the prelude, one thatâs a sublime resolution to the preludeâs theme. Theyâre two sides of the same musical idea. They can be enjoyed as a half-hour diversion - as a nice romantic indulgence - or as part of an entire eveningâs listen. If you sit down to the entire opera youâll notice how Wagner weaves his main themeâwhich is about the purest, most ecstatic love that could ever existâthroughout the opera. It comes and goes many times, and each time it recurs, it will be either a reminder of what youâve heard before or a slight variation on it. Gradually, over several hours, it moves towards its resolution, the tension building up all the while. It becomes mesmeric, and by the end, when you finally return to the Mild und Leise, the cathartic release can make for an incredibly rare and profoundly emotional response.
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I think thatâs the rub. While you can listen in smaller bits you have to be able to listen for a while to fully appreciate a lot of works. 15 minutes might get you one or two movements of a symphony but 5 listens to a pop song you enjoy. Thatâs the biggest difficulty for me, but, I accept it.
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A typical classical concert runs about 2 hours not counting intermission. When I listen at home I like that time frame, set aside 2 hours for uninterrupted music listening (or multiple sessions a day). Take an overture, concerto, and symphony to fill that 2 hours. Or two symphonies, or listen to the same symphony thru twice, or the same symphony in 2 different performances.
In todayâs world of instant gratification, annoying cell phones (like every call is an emergency that demands immediate attention over everything else), 60 second, or less, information-less sound bites and visual distractions of little real interest, and the mindless position that one must multi-task; exercising, do chores, balancing the check book, go to the grocery store, etc., your really not in control of your life, your being controlled. Sometime yaâ just have to say âeveryone leave me the hell alone. This is my 2 hours just for me, my ears, and my little gray cells.â
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I agree entirely. Carving out those precious two hours can be tough, but itâs wonderful when you do. The trick is also being able to concentrate properly, as you note. That can be tough when youâre fretting about something, and, alas, it does take a lot of effort these days to pull away from that world of instant gratification and short attention spans, and I have to confess, shamefacedly, that Iâve been less successful at this recently.
The last time I was up to date with this thread was the discussion of Berliozâs Symphonie fantastique. I think my preferred version was the Colin Davis performance with the Royal Concertgebouw back in the 70s. But Iâd need to listen to it a few times, in comparison with the other interpretations I know, before I could be confident in saying that. So, here I am weeks after that discussion and Iâve not had time or concentration span to do justice to the conversation - and Iâve still got to hear all the versions recommended above. Maybe Iâll do it next week with Thanksgiving!
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I just listened through all the many Fantastqueâs and Haroldâs in my collection over the past few weeks for the fun of the comparisons. Both of Davisâs hold up extremely well as performance and good sound. His pacing seem just right.
Rothâs versions of both with natural gut strings was captured very well, quite a difference in texture of the sound versus modern instruments. Both Norringtonâs on Haansler Classic and especially Janowskiâs on Pentatone Fantastiqueâs were sonic delights and solid performances. And 2 Haroldâs; by Mehta on Decca from 1975 and Munch on RCA from 1958 both hold up well as sound and performance.
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Note: That Toscanini was recorded in 1952, it is monophonic and pre-Dolby noise reduction. I think the earliest stereo recording I have in my collection is Fritz Reiner and Chicago SO performing Straussâs Zarathustra from 1954, had the LP at one point and now the CD.
There were many experimental stereo recordings from the earlier times but most were issued only on reel to reel tape. There may be a few odds and ends that could have been transferred to CD at some point but Iâm not familiar with any.
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Iâll keep that in mind if I find it. Have found most of the suggestions so far.
Found at least one of them. Itâs been awhile since Ive heard mono, makes no never mind to me really. Recording is of the 5th and 8th - I find the 8th better so far, but they sound like the mic position is different between them, maybe closer for the 8th. I seem to prefer a more forward staging so that may be the bias for the 8th. For a 70 year old recording, its pretty good.
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This is just WOW. Wonderful.
Thankfully Sony seems to know how to produce classical, the recordings from them that I have come across have been of consistently high quality.
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LOL, this is 25 days later, but I have to say that I really like Azul, now that Iâm able to listen to it from start to finish, instead of random tracks on Youtube.
Itâs difficult to describe. Tracks switch from slow and textured to aggressive and rhythmic, and itâs all very melodic. All together, itâs very engaging.
I have no idea if thereâs anything else out there that this sounds like.
LOL, Iâll also post some more more about Beethoven. Iâve collected so many complete sets of Beethoven symphonies over the decades, some of which are just gathering dust. My favorite lately has been Vanska and the Minnesota Orchestra, but over the next few days, Iâll try to compare the 8th across all my sets to see if my tastes have changed. I have not heard Chaillyâs Beethoven, but Iâve liked everything Iâve heard by him, particularly his Mahler, with the Concertgebouw Orchestra.
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Iâd be interested to see which 8th comes out on top for you.
Could be interesting to see if our tastes differ.
The Azul is a very broad mix of things. It sound like a showcase for the group who performed the pieces, The Knights, who do an impressive job.
In my continued mucking about with the Beethoven symphonies I came across the 5th on this album featuring The Knights chamber orchestra. It is very good IMO. Reminded me of the Joshua Bell/ASMF you recommended in how it sounds. Less instruments but still still capable of a wonderful majesty, these smaller chamber orchestras somehow feel more alive, not sure if thats because you can hear the instruments more distinctly or what. At some point m going to try and find more of these âsmall bandâ approaches to symphonic works.
Ive only heard a couple of this chamber orchestraâs albums but so far I am very impressed with their musicianship.
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Happy Music for a Happy Thanksgiving. I didnât know if I should post here, in Now Playing, or both. As we stared doing preparations for our hunkered-down dinner, I asked Barbara if sheâd like some music. âYes, Yes! - That classical one that you used to play all the time. Yo-Yo Ma and Wynton Marsalis.â Took a little searching, but I found the CD, stuck it in the Rotel, set source to CD, and it started playing through the Rectilinear IIIs. I saw tears. âItâs been such a long time. Everything was right when you used to play thisâ. Yes, we were doing just fine in 1983.
I think youâll all enjoy this fine album. Being played right now for the SECOND time through.
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Part 1 of my comparison of Beethovenâs 8th symphony: Karajan vs Szell
I decided to split this up because I have quite a few Beethoven symphony complete sets, so I started with the 2 recordings from the 60s, conducted by Karajan and Szell. Note that I only listened to the 8th symphony.
Iâm not sure why, but I stopped listening to Karajan recordings many years ago, maybe because I associated him with large orchestras playing in an old, slow and stodgy style, whether it was warranted or not. So I was surprised to re-listen to this CD, because the playing is quite quick. The only problem was that it sounded like a large orchestra, so it didnât snap into focus like the more recent orchestras that Iâve preferred lately.
On the other hand, the Szell recording is also quite quick, but the way that Szell conducted, everyone is in lockstep, and it has the style of a smaller orchestra, but with some of the scale of a larger one. It was quite entrancing, and I preferred this to the Karajan by quite a bit.
The Szell certainly didnât sound like a recording from the 60s in terms of clarity. However, perhaps because these were the early days of stereo, the balance seemed off to me. The violins were all recorded quite far to the left, so the whole symphony sounded very lop-sided to me. Funnily enough, I didnât notice this when playing on my desktop monitors, but when I switched over to the Pendant/Verite combo, it was quite distracting.
I ran the flac files through Audacityâs channel mixer, and after some experimentation, I found that mixing the channels with a 73-27 ratio for the left (meaning I transferred 27% of the left channel over to the right) and 80-20 for the right sounded much better. The more I mixed the channels, the less spacious it sounded, but this seemed like a happy medium.
Winner: Szell
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Can you imagine what it must be like to be a conductor? Playing the orchestra as your instrument Maybe they do that because they miss out on the black Friday headphone sales. Nah, that canât be it.
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Itâs interesting you notice the Lt shift. Its apparent but I would have just accepted it as the way the recording is and moved on. You are right to point it out as a flaw in the recording. Especially for the violins to be way out there, the Rt side doesnât sound as quite as far out as the Lt. Itâs an odd imbalance for sure.
Kind of related but tangential: Ive never gotten the whole Karajan as an absolute genius conductor thing. Maybe Im just ignorant or maybe he is the standard upon which others base themselves on, sometime for the better and I just prefer the âbetterâ.
He definitely prefers the BFS (big f**king symphony) sound which can sound a bit mushy and sometimes dull to me if all the elements just blend together. While some may say this is just an expression of the harmony of so many instruments working together I think it takes away some of the flavour. Perhaps his genius label comes from his ability to get these large member symphonies to play in such blended synchrony.
I dont mind the Karajan 8th, and it was his recording that put the 8th squarely in the realm of one of my favourites Beethoven symphonies.
As I have posted about previously I am tending to be more drawn towards smaller orchestral arrangement of these symphonies.
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I think that depends on your generation. I never was crazy for Karajan either. Often newer conductors, approaches and recordings impress me, but for me, the real master was Toscanini.
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I havent done much with Toscanini yet.
When I was just getting into classical music I did google searches to see what was considered good and anything by Karajan was always at the top of whatever list I was looking at. So naturally I listened to some of these recording and came away with a âmehâ. I think that stunted my introduction to this genre. But streaming and classical on satellite radio found me some new avenues to explore and now Im stuck here with the rest of you.
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