Classical Music Discussion

Same with me. Karajan helped me get into classical music but never got me excited.

It wasn’t until I heard smaller orchestras playing the same pieces, often at faster tempos, that I finally knew what I liked. For me, it was probably John Eliot Gardiner that got me really interested in the late 80s and early 90s. But then Gardiner became such an icon, I wonder if people see him the same (negative) way that I see Karajan.

Having said that, I was surprised at how much I liked Karajan’s 8th, but it just wasn’t as tight as the later recordings that I prefer.

Listen to Toscanini conducting Verdi.

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Szell and Cleveland made some terrific recorded performances from the time frame starting with Late Mozart thru Late Brahms with a little Bruckner and Mahler thrown in. (He did a great Mahler 4 with Cleveland and I think the soloist was Judith Raskin - she was perfection singing that 4th movement, Never heard better).

Szell’s performances are straightforward and no nonsense. What we got was simply the music. The best Beethoven 5th performance I can remember I had on LP was Szell on the Philips label but can’t remember the orchestra and I don’t think it was the Cleveland or that it ever got released on CD. I especially like Szell’s late Mozart Symphonies, the 4 Schumann Symphonies, the 5 piano concertos with Fleisher, the Grieg and Schumann piano concertos with Fleisher, and Schubert Symphonies 8 & 9. All of these made with Cleveland.

Columbia’s sonics (now owned by Sony I think) were not always the best in all cases but with performances like these…

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The marketing of V.K. by DG contributed to his perceived conducting superiority and “Gramophone” magazine was very high on him. I preferred a lot of his earlier performances. As the years went by at the BPO he groomed the orchestra for a sumptuous, glamorous sound with soft edges. Kind of like Smooth Jazz versus Straight Ahead Jazz. And this approach was popular with a lot of classical music listeners. I don’t think composers like Stravinsky, Bartok, or many others, communicate well with that approach, but that’s just me. He did have his moments for me, I like his Sibelius and Tchaikovsky and some other points of interest for me. Primarily I think because of the amazing string sections of the BPO.

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Will do.

I’ll see if I can find it streaming somewhere. I think I will just look at him in general given the recommendations here. The 8th that @PaisleyUnderground reviewed that I listened to was a Sony re release and outside of that balance issue I found it well recorded. I figured it was the same recording due to the left sided violins being as he described.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that description. I often find him a little too syrupy and soft. He still does have some good works but he would not be a go to conductor for me.

For me at least, Gramophone is a publication that is very hit and miss. I do look at it for new releases I may enjoy but I have found a lot of their well reviewed material not to my liking. I have come across a few that have been good though, so I still go and look at it every so often.

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I was listening to Beethoven 9th, 1st movement, Solti with Chicago Symphony (Decca) as a recommended version from above. Around the 10 minute mark I could swear there is some choral accompaniment going on in the background.

Has anyone else heard this? Is this supposed to be there? Ive never picked it up before on other 9th’s Ive heard. I put on the Utopias just to make sure I was picking out as much as I could, initially had on the Verite’s.

EDIT: The Solti is very good, quite enjoying it.

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I finished my comparison of the Beethoven 8th Symphony that I own. I have to admit I’ve tended to listen to the 3rd, 5th and 9th symphonies more than the others in the past, but the 8th may have become my favorite.

After the 1963 Karajan and the Szell, I moved onto more recent recordings, all of which were “historically informed”, so tempos were a little faster, and in some cases historic instruments were used.

This is what I listened to:
John Eliot Gardiner , Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique
David Zinman , Tonhalle Orchestra
Nikolaus Harnoncourt , Chamber Orchestra Of Europe
Osmo Vanska , Minnesota Orchestra

Both the Gardiner and Zinman were played at a much faster tempo, and the Gardiner just seemed a little too forced to me in places, so I would personally pick the Zinman if I wanted something that zoomed along but still retained some musicality.

The Harnoncourt and Vanska both seemed to pick the tempos that suited them, still fairly fast, but more leisurely compared to the Gardiner and Zinman. I liked these 2 recordings more than the others, but I couldn’t pick out a favorite between them.

Here are the track times, in case you’re interested.

Gardiner Zinman Harnoncourt Vanska
8:41 8:14 9:32 9:11
3:46 3:51 3:54 4:08
5:28 4:16 5:55 4:49
6:17 6:40 7:28 7:48

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I’ll check it out later today. There is no choral accompaniment in the first movement. I have 2 pressings of this on CD (and had the original LP)
This one is NLA
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and
This is still available
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It can also be found in other repackages or box sets I suspect.

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Using my HD800S, Lyr3 with a Psvane 6SN7 UK Black Plate, Yggdrasil DAC, and the AES digital feed from my Emotiva ERC-3, I just listened to both of my Solti CD’s and from 9:25 to the 12:00 minute mark and no voices in the background. In the days of making recordings on analogue tapes there was always the possibility of some bleed through of the magnetic information from one revolution of the reel to the next. Pre or post echo was not uncommon. A lot of the equipment of those days was not as revealing as today’s and on some CD’s especially the higher cost re-mastering’s by K2, MOFI, and others, especially those done in Japan, bring out finer or more obvious details that are revealed more clearly than was ever possible with the equipment of the past.

At the start of the 9:25 mark the opening bars of the 1st movement come back with great vehemence for the entire orchestra, especially the pounding tympani. At points the horns and some wood winds are playing more softly than the others behind the rest of the orchestra. Horns and some woodwinds can mimic or sound like the human voice in ways that say strings and tympani can’t, especially when embedded in 90 some other instruments most of them going full tilt

When I got out of the service in 1970 and started my life in audio I early on acquired (on LP of course) my favorite rock; CSNY, Stones, Jefferson Airplane, the Doors, etc. But I was exposed to classical all my life growing up so I also had Mozart #40 and 41 on EMI with Giulini, Klemperer’s Beethoven and Brahms, the usual war horse recordings of the day. While shopping at Franklin Music one time my sales guy there was Jimmy who I believe also had some ties to the classical music station in Philly, WFLN. I saw a copy of Mahler’s 2nd symphony with Ormandy and the Philadelphia Orchestra on RCA. The cover caught my attention and he suggested I might like it but to be prepared for much more complexity to decipher. And he was right, it turned my brain inside out trying to take it all in and follow all the lines of melody, rhythms, and instrumentation in the scoring, even compared to the classical composers I was very familiar with. But, I’m still constantly surprised at the occasional, “never heard or noticed that before even after so many repeated plays”.

When I listened to say CSNY it was easy for my brain to hear each voice and instrument individually or in combination right out of the starting gate. I honed my skill at doing that with Beethoven, Brahms, et al, over time. Had to start all over again with Mahler (and Wagner with all his leitmotivs in combinations in his late opera’s). But, anyway, I sidetracked myself, LOL!

Was this a CD or Streaming / Download you were listening to?

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And now, back to comparing the 16 different recordings of Mahler’s 10th Symphony I have, my current music listening project.

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It was a stream from Primephonic, but the album art supplied by the service states the provenance I noted. They seem to be pretty accurate with that information so far. Its my only way to be able to wander around this genre wth confidence that I am not missing much (outside of the Hyperion catalogue). Tidal is becoming more and more irksome, Amazon HD seems to have some weird UI stuff going on plus they already get enough of my money. I would like to try Qobuz but not available in Canada yet.

I think you are right in that it is either a production echo or my noodle misinterprettng the instrument line. I was taken aback by it because it was unexpected and I only heard it one section of the movement. I thought to myself it really doesnt make sense to mix in background choral for a small part of the song so I wanted to see what people thought I was hearing.- would have been cool if they really did it as it adds a wonderful etherealness to it. Ghost audio!

It’s really neat when you pick up something new in a familiar recording. Whenever I get new equipment or even change tubes on my amp I go back and listen to some old favourites to see how they differ from what I have experienced in the past.

Still working my way through the Beethoven symphony cycle - the Solti really was impressive. I have found recordings I really enjoy of the 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th so far. I think I’ll be looking at the 3rd or 6th next.

Mahler hasnt grabbed a hold of me, may not be in my wheelhouse, but I do want to experience his major works at least. I have liked some of his arrangements of other composers.

I will see if I can find these and try them out. Thanks.

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I’ve been struggling a bit with Mahler myself. I found that I had to find the right conductor for my particular taste, and that’s been Chailly with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra so far. I liked his versions of 1 and 5 (which were the symphonies that @FLTWS recommended that I start with). I really struggled with Symphony 3, almost giving up until I heard Chailly’s, and everything was right again.

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Also note that the Concertgebouw Orchestra has a very long tradition of performing Mahler often (and handed down over the generations of musicians) even when Mahler was alive and starting with Mengelberg I think. Mahler himself conducted there. The Concertgebouw hall has a rich, warm, maybe a touch dark acoustic that perfectly suits his symphonies. Haitink’s first go with the Concertgebouw and the 3rd (on Philips) has the best opening horn and brass performance I’ve ever heard, they really snarl. Abbado on DG with Vienna (another warm hall with a glowing acoustic for horns) is another favorite of mine, not sure if he recorded it more than once.Bernstein and the N.Y Philharmonic does a fine final movement of #3 on DG as well…

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I’m listening to the first movement of the 5th and the acoustics of the hall really do add a glow to this.

Hmmm, as a fellow Mahler fence-sitter I think @PaisleyUnderground is correct, conductor may be key (along with venue) as I dont recall being sucked into a Mahler like this before. I need to stop looking at this thread and just listen to my ever piling up album playlist.

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Mahler should be listened to with good loudspeakers, on a cold brooding, possibly stormy day. Start after a double scotch, and after considering the girlfriends that you failed with due to your own faults.

That’s assuming that you can’t go to an actual concert.

If you’re a wuss, start with the 5th Symphony, 4th movement. Otherwise, start with the 2nd Symphony. Be sure to have a second double scotch by your listening chair.

Hope this helps.

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The “live” experience with a good orchestra in a decent hall will show you exactly what you miss in sound and dynamics and detail. Your brain will adapt to filling in the missing components over time with enough exposure to “live” to make the recorded playback experience satisfactory.

And you never know about the conductors role. Most top orchestras can play these works in their sleep. Charles Dutoit as far as I know never recorded a Mahler symphony yet I heard him conduct the Mahler 3rd with the Phila. O., at the Kimmel Center. Simply astounding.

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Has anyone noted that more recent Decca productions have a tendency toward some shrillness/glare?

I have quite a few Decca albums on my streaming service and it only seems problematic with releases in the last few years.

Not really, but I will take note of release dates. But, with with close to 3,000 CD’s (including box set contents), I don’t buy like I use to years past. Of course I’m CD only and I can only suspect that with streaming the possibilities for differences with CD playback sound could possibly occur.

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It’s possible to be a streaming artefact but Im not sure. It is definitely not there across the board. Out of curiosity Im going to find some recent Decca releases and see if what Im hearing is consistent. I do not hear it on their older releases nor with other recording labels.

Could also be that my audio chain teeters toward being bright (I like to think it’s balanced but :man_shrugging:t5:); however, Im not treble sensitive so for me to perceive something as shrill likely suggests there is an issue, maybe its just a random coincidence of a couple of suboptimal recordings.

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@perogie - partial quote from Rob Watts - he’s said Decca recordings from the 60s are his favorite sound. Depending on what time period you’re talking about, this could be due to the recording techniques themselves.
Decca recordings from 1960 to pre dolby 1967 redbook recordings do things that modern 192/24 kHz recordings are incapable of doing - notably being able to record speed and impact of real instruments. Modern recordings are smooth and refined but seem incapable of reproducing timbre variations and raw impact like the classic 1960’s recordings

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