Empire Ears Odin - Official Thread

So you’re using your phone with an external DAP?

I considered that years ago but the SQ never did it for me. As for Cayin, even their N3pro (479$) is an amazing little (and light) device. It even has tubes (nu-tubes) and lots of output options. For the money very very good even with higher end gear. You could use Odin without an issue with N3pro.

I see the Dunu Zen being in the same price category like the Shozy Black Hole and another new IEM that I will be posting a review soon. :wink:

If you want a headphone-like signature, the Black Hole are very nice, especially with the Cayins as they deliver the necessary warmth and foundation for this IEM.

Let’s see about the tour. Nothing will be happening before end of chinese new year but Shozy will provide some review units. Where you from btw.?

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I live in Vermont.

I have very high demands for overall user experience. For example: any dap needs to be able to stream apple music (among others) because I am trapped in the apple ecosystem (discussion for another time). I also basically eliminated my own music libraries many years ago.

But, what I found so far, is the dx160 is the least expensive dap that fits that need. However, it kept giving me issues. I am considering hiby r6 2020 and ibasso dx300 as they are thoroughly modern. But I still have some issues, because this means sound from apple never makes it to my ears. In a mobile use case, that is a really tough sell for me. The btr5 (or even the dx160) is fine in BT, but that just seems silly.

I have a hiby r3 pro saber arriving today that I expect will have the connectivity to solve all use cases in one unit. This doesn’t preclude something like an iDSD Signature for dedicated listening, but that use case doesn’t have priority at this time. In reality, the phone kind of needs to be the source for me.

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The Hiby R6 2020 and iBassoDX300 are supposed to be excellent devices. Certainly better than the other options you mentioned. Sound wise I was very disappointed with the R3 pro.

It’s a shame you are stuck in the Apple ecosystem, especially for listening to your music, but that of course is your choice. I quit years ago and have not looked back since.

What is most important to you though? Getting the best possible sound quality or simple convenience? You can have both with a modern Android based DAP that supports all streaming apps to start with.

That they don’t support Apple music is Apples fault with their walled ecosystem, but again, your preference counts of course.

I don’t use streaming services at all as I simply want the best possible quality and pretty much all my music is lossless or uncompressed.

Maybe you try out some stuff and then decide what you enjoy more?

I am a user experience designer myself and have been working on many products so far, so usability is one of my top priorities too!

You can have that with the right device and more. Just give it a try. :+1::wink:

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I know from experience that things that don’t fit into my life pretty well don’t get used. So, it’s either make it work in the ecosystem I have, or limit the time used to far more limiting ranges. Example, I could just buy the iDSD signature, and only listen when it’s convenient enough to be connected to that. That would rule out about 80% of my current listening time. The choice of higher quality comes at the cost of time spent listening. So far, any quality increases don’t justify the time lost because of them.

To some extent, yes. But many of the android daps could have Apple Music on it, but the manufacturer does not make the effort to allow it. Now, maybe the problem is the experience is less than stellar (as on the dx160), which is a whole different issue. That problem is likely fixed by daps with newer hardware and software (r6 2020 and dx300). I imagine those won’t stutter, ignore presses of the hardware buttons or freeze up while playing or during various interactions. Now, I am a streamer, and many of these daps (whether they allow streaming or not) are purpose built for file based libraries. I won’t be going back to files.

Yes, it is limiting. But, the larger problem of usability exists on every DAP (even using a dedicated iPod touch). The problem I have with it, is it cuts off the phone interactions (which was far more frustrating than I anticipated) and, at the same time, I can’t control simple things like skip/play/pause and volume without having the DAP in hand. My phone is in my hand or the Apple Watch is accessible for those controls at all times. And, unlike the dx160, those controls always work.

Side bar on quality: Every time I get obsessed with audio (happens every 5 to 10 years or so as stuff needs replacing), I do this evaluation of “is the current technology actually better?”. Thus far, I have never been able to tell the difference between well done compression and lossless. This goes as far back as VBR mp3 (that I ripped myself). Now, I have never had something on the level of an Odin with a cayin N8 to test. That is one reason I gave up my libraries of “high quality” files. Having them gained me nothing. I just did this review again between amazon ultra hd tracks and Apple Music wired various ways to my Dunu Zen. Still, nothing worth making a fairly massive and complicated ecosystem switch. Hence the lack of enthusiasm there. I even find well implemented AAC bluetooth implementations to be hard to pick out from wired. (I can when the noise floor is audible)

To be clear, that is a comment on what I can hear. Not on what others can hear. So far, I stand on the side of 16/44 being beyond the quality of what most people can hear or have the gear to hear. If that ever changes, believe me, I’ll jump on amazon hd or whatever makes sense asap. But moving off Apple Music for an inferior UX without a massive quality jump seems like an exercise in frustration.

So, I continue my search for a DAP or DAC/AMP that sounds better than the Apple Dongle and doesn’t limit the head time it can get because of poor quality and/or poor UX.

Sorry, long winded response. FYI: I already hate the r3 pro saber. I thought it would be at least as good as the BTR5 given it uses the same DACs. But nope.

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I understand your frustration. You could for instance use a DAP with Hiby music installed and a phone with the Hiby music app and control the DAP in master /slave mode over your phone. I do that with my Cayin N8 sometimes as the UI is not good and slow as hell. But, the N8 is incredible sound wise.

But sure, the dongles get smaller and better all the time. I am just not a fan of compromise and Apple to me was always about compromise to do what I wanted it to do. I guess dongles are a fix part of their ecosystem…

Btw. I don’t believe in Highres files either! In fact I could never make out a difference, not even on my high end home system.

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Hiby Music only works with file libraries. My hope was hiby link acted more “generically” than only with hiby music. But on iOS it doesn’t even support bluetooth to control the DAP (only wifi). Let alone when out and about. Basically, it’s pointless from iOS.

Apple is about compromise. The irony here is that if Apple’s UX wasn’t so obscenely better, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I would probably already own an r6 2020 or dx300. Maybe even something more sound focused if that dap supported whatever streaming I need.

I am surprised by this. Why wouldn’t you embrace the ease of streaming? Especially since you don’t have the requirements for UX that I do? I mean, there are tons of daps that stream Amazon HD, Tidal and QuBuzz with supposedly great sound.

Technically, I still have a local iTunes library. I don’t use it. But I have it!

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I don’t want to use streaming as it is not always available, because you must have permanent internet connection. Also, streaming sound quality is inferior to local files. This is a difference I can and do hear.

I don’t want to be dependent on a proper connection, I just want to play my music wherever, whenever. Simple as that.

My own requirements regarding a good UX are very high. I am senior UX/UI designer for all platforms. But I understand you as I have seen that pattern everyday in my job.

You see, almost all designers are Apple fans and often companies focus on Apple-first design. Other platforms get neglected because of personal preference. I will never do that. I will always try to make a product as good on all platforms alike.

In my experience, people tend to prefer what they know. This is particularly true with Apple aficionados. (No offense meant!). I’ve seen even young designers having problems too adjust to new software for instance. Often this is just a matter of habit, nothing more.

I like to try everything I can and then decide what’s best for me. This may change every day.
And I too make compromise because to me, sound quality is No.1.

Form follows function applies here for me. When I listen, I don’t switch the music often but listen to whole albums usually. So a less perfect UI may be fine as long as it gets the job done.

There are very good DAPs out there UX/UI wise.
I have an AK SP1000M that has a good UX and UI for instance.

All I’m saying is: it doesn’t hurt to give something new a chance once in a while. If you give it some time, it might just surprise you in a good way. :+1::sweat_smile:

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My solution here, on daps (and even my phone) is to use the streaming services play offline capabilities. But, I understand how that can be annoying.

As a software engineer, I do too. But if one platform has stuff that makes it better for a particular task, I’ll still take advantage of it. This is pretty common with apple stuff. ON the flip side, if apple sdk’s don’t support something well, you are often out of luck (and the other platform will do it better)

It’s actually much much worse with apple fans because it’s not just what you know. It’s that consistency is generally so good, that you don’t have to know new things. Basically, if you can use one apple thing, you can use them all. I have been well aware of that since I switched to apple. I was the anti-mac back in the early 90’s. But the kool aid is oh so tasty.

Adjusting to a new UX/UI is fine. The dx160 was great, when it worked. Dealing with stuff that just doesn’t work as intended is not ok. And, never mind the interface itself and the regular bugs. Things that are more problematic for me is that a dap has no way for me to quickly control it (hiby link not really applicable, and even the bluetooth button didn’t work on the dx160), that is a bigger problem for me. Since 95% of use is effectively mobile and highly interrupted, that aspect is critical. That’s part of the overall UX, if not the device itself. But when taking the dap out and pushing the pause button doesn’t pause it, I am out of options.

Would I like to be able to use the best sounding dap? You bet. But, right now, I am just trying to clear the hurdle of: “It works as it should”. Yes, I need streaming. Yes, Apple Music is highly desired as an option. If I could solve these other problems, I could live with amazon hd, but even that is a stretch for a lot of these daps.

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I agree with Tom. The Odin is extremely coherent, especially considering its a tribrid, and its one of the best IEM/Headphones available. Easily my favorite IEM.

The Dunu ZEN is coherent because its a single driver. Single driver IEMs dont have to worry about cross-overs, driver-type changes, etc to be non-coherent, at least from how I intepret it. I think the Zen is good, but its not great, even for its price point. I think for a dynamic driver, it’s a solid choice for IEM but I do think multi-BA or mult-driver IEMs best a single driver one in every way except perhaps “coherency” (because again only 1 driver).

The Odin is fantastic. It’s also very expensive for an IEM, while the Zen is much cheaper. If I were to compare it to the Monarch/Clarivoyance, which are also tribrids, I’d still take the Odin over it. It’s bass definition is much much better, and the treble is silky smooth and actually makes me feel like EST driver technology has finally showed itself with resolution at top of class status. The Thieaudio twins are good, very good even, I rank them in the top 10 or so of my IEM list, but it’s still a step below the Odin for me. Odin is on its own playing field for me. (I will say the Erlkonig/VE8 is probably up there too, but they aren’t my preferred everyday listening sound signature, though a lot of people will prefer those over the Odin – warm vs neutral)

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I absolutely agree with you that modern DAPs are not where they should be from a UX perspective. Often the hardware and matching sound are there, just using those devices can still be a pain. That’s a shame and manufacturers need to step up real quick! But things are getting better.

What we can do as their customers is writing to them, complaining to them, making them aware that this is not acceptable in 2021.

What reviewers can and should do is evaluating the devices (all devices) in terms of usability.
When I review I am doing it already a bit but I will do it even more in future reviews adding a usability paragraph.

This includes handling for instance the general hardware of the devices, the software, the manual, cables on headphones, packaging etc.
All this is important aside from sound quality and adds OR takes away from the user experience of a device. I know @resolve started evaluating how earphones behave on the go. That’s great! Please continue doing that.

Hence I call out to the top reviewers here on this forum : Guys, please think about usability in your reviews, especially on your video reviews!

@Chrono @antdroid @Resolve.
You’re the ones that are seen and heard most of all. You’re doing a great job and people trust you.
Please think about the overall user experience and usability too.

Someone in the forum suggested a thread about this topic too and I think it’s a great idea.
@TylersEclectic Could we please have that?

I finally want to say that I’m pleased that more and more people are thinking about usability.
Thanks to you all! :+1::grin::hugs:

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I typically do a quick paragraph or two on how the cable handles (and typically i just say use a better cable because most of the time the cable that comes with headphones and IEMs are terrible) or how the IEM fits in my ear or how a headphone fits on my head.

When I review DAPs, I spend a lot more time on usability though since, to me, thats the most important aspect, even more so than sound quality.

I do like the idea of talking about walking on the go, though I don’t personally do that myself. I don’t use wired IEMs or headphones while walking around or take public transit. I use true wireless (in my case, Galaxy Buds series) for those times now.

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That’s great. Thank you, Anthony. :+1::blush:
Do you get to talk to manufacturers too so you can give feedback directly?

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Sometimes and it depends :wink:

I have helped final tuning decisions with companies like Tin Audio and a couple other chinese brands in the past and have had conversations informally with other brand reps about suggestions or feedback on their thoughts but that’s about the extent of it. Some brands take negatives and try to use it for next releases and some will just stop communicating with me. Haha.

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I would think companies who take their (potential) customers seriously will always value feedback.

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some companies, wont name them, are pretty aggressive when it comes to criticism of their products. I get it. They spent a lot of time and effort on it, and want it to be the best. Sometimes it’s just not what I personally like, and I share my personal thoughts on it and get accused or shunned. It is what it is.

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@antdroid One more thing for clarity:

Zen vs thieaudio twins. Zen wins in coherency, but what about bass texture and slam? I would think the Zen would win by nature of being a theoretically better DD than what’s in the thieaudio models.

I also would assume the two weapon 9+ of the Odin would beat the Zen on that as well.

@Tom_Ato also suggested the valkyrie. And I think that might be spot on as they don’t raise the mids like the legend X. (And they are half the price of odin)

For context, lcd-x and quad era-1 make me feel like I am smothered. The Zen and dusk both have some of that richness without overwhelming me. I realize that’s over ear vs IEM, but it’s what my experience has to compare.

Thnaks!

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The LX can have the effect of overwhelming you, but I still like them. They are the most engaging IEMs I know.

I think from a price - /performance point of view (not to forget beauty) I love the Valkyrie MKIIs.
But don’t take my word for it. :wink:

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The Zen’s DD driver is A LOT better than the Monarch and Clair. The designer of the TA added low-frequency BA drivers to improve the bass resolution in the TA twins. If you want to hear how poor the DD is on its own, check out the Legacy 3 or Legacy 5 or 9. Its not great imo.

So yea, the Zen’s low end is I think very good and better than the Twins.

The Odin’s double dynamic drivers are also very good, though I don’t know if its a massive leap above the Zen in just that department. The Odin’s overall sound is where it wins out. To me, its sound signature + technical ability is what makes it special.

The original valkyrie is pretty overwhelming in it’s bass and treble. Its mids definitely sounded sucked out to me. I haven’t heard the LX before, but it’s FR looks more appealing to me, since it has a slightly tamer treble response. I have not tried any of the MK 2 ones yet. I know a few of the folks in Singapore have since the MK2 were released at same time as Odin for Asia market.

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I think, to sum up: The blessing 2 dusk started it all.

The zen is the “reasonable” upgrade prioritizing bass and coherency.
The thieaudio twins are a “reasonable” upgrade prioritizing everything else.
The valkyrie is an upgrade in everything at the cost of some balance.
And the Odin is the super uber “unreasonable” upgrade over everything.

That’s the value hierarchy I need to make a decision. Thanks!

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Many, many thanks to headphones.com for letting me test-drive these IEMs as part of the loaner program. Thanks also to @TylersEclectic for arranging things. I very much appreciate the wonderful opportunity.

One reason why I wanted to hear these IEMs is that I’ve often been flummoxed by the tuning of Empire Ears IEMs. Unlike Campfire Audio or Noble Audio, to give just two examples, Empire Ears IEMs don’t seem to share a common house sound. Instead, they have fairly diverse tunings. I’ve auditioned quite a few of them—the Valkyrie, the Bravado, the Wraith, in particular—and have found each to be quite different. Some were great, others less so. I’d hoped, then, that the Odin would have a tuning I’d like.

While these are immediately appealing IEMs, that appeal is subtle. There aren’t any fireworks - nothing stands out right away as being particularly prominent or distinct or striking. (I’m referring to the sound here, not the shells, which are a bit blingy for my tastes).

The IEMs are surprisingly neutral and natural—for Empire Ears—and they’re nicely balanced. I can’t detect any great, particular emphasis, really. The treble and bass are perhaps lifted slightly. The treble is lovely, very smooth without being peaky or bright. The bass is tight and fast and extends fairly deeply but it’s not as thick or heavy or boomy as some Empire Ears IEMs can be. I suspect the mids are the key to the great sound; they’re nice and coherent, I don’t detect any recessions or odd dips. The tonality is spot on.

The Odin’s qualities, then, become apparent gradually. Beyond the tuning, the technicalities are the Odin’s best feature. These are fairly fast IEMs and they have solid but not especially strong macrodynamics. There isn’t a large soundstage—it’s certainly a step behind the Solaris—and it’s not particularly spacious, either—unlike, say the Andromeda—but the Odin’s staging isn’t overly closed in or congested (for IEMs). Rather, the staging works well because the layering and separation are outstanding. Imaging is a particularly strong suit. So too is the resolution, which is extraordinary. These are highly engaging IEMs.

From my first impressions I’d suggest that the Odin make for a well-balanced and refined sound, one that works for all genres. In fact, and again surprisingly, I’m finding that the Odin work well with a wide range of recordings. They do justice to great recordings, of course, and yet they’re also forgiving of poorly recorded or produced music. The Odin offer an easy, fatigue-free listen.

Best of all, I keep forgetting to listen to music critically. I find myself failing to take note of what I’m hearing. Instead, I keep getting distracted, absorbed in listening to the music. More later!

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