Expensive Underperformers

Haven’t found measurements to correlate well with grain. A THD spike that high at that frequency is concerning anyway though. Pretty much all of the “egg” Hifimans have a wiggly midrange leading up to around 1k though so that’s not unusual.

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Thanks for this. Now I understand why I like my Edition X so much.

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Yes, at the DIY Audio Heaven / Solderdude link (@pwjazz above) they chart the wiggly HiFiMan membrane:


Before my HE-560s died, I thought I could hear ‘audio dithering’ from membrane flutter too…akin to this:

image

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Just another note to take that site with quite a large grain of salt. This is the guy that still believes in flatplates. Mad Economist has already covered this elsewhere on the forum though.

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I like the site. Frans has covered a lot of headphones and I find that his observations often mesh pretty well with my own. Yes you have to take his frequency response measurements with a grain of salt, but he’s quite clear about that on his site. I also enjoy that he often mods stuff, and I enjoy my personal interactions with him.

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This +1, For years now I have try to understand why I keep going back to my Edition X. His review pretty much summed it up and was very on point about many things I felt with the Edition X and gave me a clear path on what I need to focus next as far as my next HP.

BUT we all have our own way of seen and hearing things (opinions), this is what drives the communities :slight_smile:

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With a truckload of salt in the case of the Susvara. On paper it has the most perfect curve of any headphone on the market afaik but in my ears it’s a different story. It doesn’t sound bad, I wouldn’t be honest if I said it did but I have phones costing far less that sound better, at least to me. I put it up to it not getting along with the Naim V1 DAC I use. Never tried it with my small USB-powered DAC though, but I intend to do so just for kicks.

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[quote=“MuseMuff, post:27, topic:5923, full:true”]

Curious about those “phones costing far less that sound better.” I almost bought the Susvara, so maybe I should be glad I didn’t?

Yeah nothing wrong with the guy. But you have to be aware that you’re not looking at an industry standard let alone IEC complaint measurement system’s data. I’m unsure how clear that is to a random visitor.

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Definitely, this message can’t be stressed enough. If you’re a newcomer to the headphone scene you wouldn’t be aware that all (well a lot) of the measurement rigs differ in subtle ways from each other. I am far far from an expert in this field but I think it’s only the big industry standard stuff that’s calibrated to the proper standards that can be compared like for like. Even then I’m not sure or not if it’s possible to compare these like for like. Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on this as I am sure you know more about this than a lot of us. Of course it would be good to hear Ian’s (@Torq) take on this aswell. Perhaps I should have put this in the measurement thread. Sorry Mods perhaps you could do so if you feel it necessary.

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For me the Sennheiser HDV 820 belongs here… For clarity this is the amp/dac not the headphone (HD 820). While the amp portion has gobs of power it lacks a lot of refinement to present music in a pleasant way. Not to mention the dac is horrible.

At $2399, this to me preformed far under expectations.

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Depends. Focal Utopia and Focal Stellia (just got it) both sound better to me than the Susvara. I suspect however that I could make the Susvara sing better than those (neither are perfect but they’re damn good cans) by using an amp from Hifiman. I’m thinking about the reasonably priced EF6 which is less than $2,000 (by “reasonably priced” I meant with regards to the Susvara’s price but nevertheless it weighs 24 lbs and probably means business) and I heard a lot of positive comments about that pairing. I suggest you try and find a store that stocks both so you can try before you buy since you’d be throwing $8k at the system

I say this because the amp/DAC I use now (Naim V1) was designed specifically in partnership with Focal for audiophile-class phones (works well with many others though, but not the Susvara) so I find it normal that this equipment draws the best from Focals. Hifiman’s priority is to make Hifiman products sound the best they can. In any case the Susvara is not the kind of phone you can just use any DAC with, imho it deserves dedicated technology. But still I see no real justification for charging so much for a headphone, if I were you I’d shop around, even try some of the “lesser” HFM cans.

EDIT: Just to clarify and because I am sometimes asked about it, when I say Focal and Naim did something “in partnership” I am not referring to two companies collaborating on a joint project, but about a product or service purveyed by a single corporate entity officially known as the Focal & Naim Group. Call me pedantic :smile:

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Has anyone heard the HiFiMan Shangri-La? I heard it at CanJam NY a few years ago… in the loud, main exhibit hall… after hearing the Sennheiser HE 1 in a quiet, dedicated listening room. It was no contest.

(Ultimately, though, I went with Orpheus because the amp goes nicely with my granite kitchen and bathroom counters, well worth the extra nine grand :grinning:)

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You surely can. Drive them with a properly designed powerful amplifier and it will sing. If it’s better than the Utopia??? That’s debatable and will most definitely come down to personal preference, they’re certainly different.
PS. It’s cheaper to get a speaker amp vs a headphone amp with clean raw power and “musicality” (lots of quote on quote to this term) to drive them properly. The only “affordable” headphone amp that users reported to drive them properly is the Soundaware P1 ($1,499).

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I’m a Susvara owner. Obviously the perceived quality of an item, especially relating to something so subjective as how well they sound, is obvious. I would, nevertheless, suggest that to truly compare a headphone for its sound quality against others, it would be necessary to provide sufficient power, in the case of the Susvara. The analogy I would suggest would be to conclude that a new Porsche doesn’t appear to be a great car/great engine, if one were to use a lower octane gasoline, given higher octane gas is required. My Susvara’s are driven by a Woo Audio WA33( sufficient fuel), and they perform very well.

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Yes, it’s legendary since, at lauch it was the most expensive dedicated headphone system ever put on the market. Some will argue that the Raal SR-1A is more expensive but in reality that is not the case, the reson being that Raal used $180,000 worth of superlative Simaudio Moon gear to drive them on a demo tour and it’s those electronics that people remember most due to their extravagant nature. The Raal phones by themselves are no more expensive than ultra high-end gear like, for example, the Focal Utopia or HFM Susvara.

Total overkill and perhaps not the best of ideas since people who heard/saw the demos remember mostly the electronics. Anyway I’m glad to see that even within its highest spheres of product Hifiman continues to drive Western heaphone manufacturers to keep their prices at a reasonable level. $64,000 at launch, the Shangri-La has now dropped to $50,000 and that has nothing to do with quality, it’s just the good Chinese professor’s business model: the more you churn out the less you can sell the preceding ones for and the best the value gets.

How many models does HFM have out? Nearly 20 I reckon if you count the Drop models. Look at the Sundara, If it had been made here it would have cost nearly $1,000 but HFM handed them out at $500 and now $350… you can’t beat that. And you probably can’t beat the Shangri-La. That being said what would make me hesitate a bit is that HFM did not use a high-end planar for it but instead chose their electro-static phone. I suspect if it breaks down it’ll have to ship to China for repairs or replacement considering that HFM sells very few EST’s in North America, and that means going without your phones for a month, unless they have a sort of express VIP program (at 50 grand I would demand one) But considering the Shangri-La and the Orpheus are self contained systems chances for design flaws are very slim. I would order a spare pair of pads for either however, just in case the dog decides to take one for a walk.

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I have HE6se. Definitely need the juice to make 'em sing.

Hell yeah, I have those in my collection and they’re the most inefficient phones out of over 100 others. I tell be ear because I don’t have the equipment required for precise measurements. However and even though it shares some of the H6se’s design features the Susvara is a little less reluctant if we can put it that way (at $6,000 it better be). Both are damn good phones, but of the finicky persuasion.

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It is hard to tell if the Naim V1 is underpowered since it does not have any power spec on the website, it would need to go onto a test rig. If you want matching amp a NAP100 might be needed to wake your Susvara.

But the Hifiman Susvera going to see both Swing voltage and serious current needs ( these are not instantaneous peak currents bellow )

Listening Loudness Voltage Needed Current Needed Power Needed
Safe 85 dB SPL 0.31 Vrms 5.17 mA 1.6 mW
Moderate 100 dB SPL 1.73 Vrms 28.83 mA 49.88 mW
Fairly Loud 110 dB SPL 5.49 Vrms 91.5 mA 502.34 mW
Very Loud 115 dB SPL 9.75 Vrms 162.5 mA 1.584 W
Painful 120 dB SPL 17.35 Vrms 289.17 mA 5.017 W
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It would be good to talk about the Focal Stelia which is being compared to Susvaria, it is one most efficient headphones on the market today. This headphone you can check noise floors on amps with it since it is so efficient, It what I checked Pendant with post Tube Roles. An Apple Headphone Lighting adapter has enough voltage swing and current availability to get this headphone roaring loud.

So it really hard to compare these to headphone without an optimal amp for Susvaria, just like you would with an SR-1a, Vertie or LCD-4

Listening Loudness Voltage Needed Current Needed Power Needed
Safe 85 dB SPL 0.02 Vrms 0.57 mA 0.01 mW
Moderate 100 dB SPL 0.09 Vrms 2.57 mA 0.23 mW
Fairly Loud 110 dB SPL 0.3 Vrms 8.57 mA 2.57 mW
Very Loud 115 dB SPL 0.53 Vrms 15.14 mA 8.03 mW
Painful 120 dB SPL 0.94 Vrms 26.86 mA 25.25 mW
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