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Purchase Advice
406

Now onto the next one, as again I consider all of your advice. I am factoring in so much and brings me to my next question.

I want of course future proof, having the option of both balanced and unbalanced outputs from my amp. Which I have already mentioned several times.

Now I’m getting the notion that some amps are truly balanced and some are using inverters or whatever topology to cut costs. Just the point. Definitely don’t understand, so I’m Just regurgitating what I find out. Please correct or inform me if any of this sounds faulty.

But my question is if my amp is balanced would it be better or best to also get a dac that has a balanced output connection to the amp?

Does the fact that the amp itself having balanced inputs make it a “true balanced” amp? Or are they still using some type of short cut to save money?

And what is the most optimal setup, with the configurations I mentioned? Would a dac with balanced output be far great than an unbalanced output dac to a balanced amp? Cause again my amp will have both balanced and unbalanced.

Lastly, does XLR outperform single ended balanced cables?

I won’t be running more than maybe maximum 8 ft cables, these questions are to solely get a better understanding.

Too much to consider.

407

Balanced doesn’t always mean balanced.

Read please: Single Ended, Balanced & Differential - What it Means

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408

I will definitely look into that, I believe that is point I am trying to state above.

Edit: I see the get the fundamental idea. The thing that caught my attention was the Geshelli Archel, which raised the question if that is correct. The output is not balanced, but the input is, which is why I’m trying to better understand what more can it provide besides audio hygiene.

Also if I am basically only doing half the job or only bumping up power just by doing a balanced amp to where it would be more beneficial to get a balanced connection between the dac and amp to truly gain the potential benefit based on this amp configuration.

Or vice versa, having an unbalanced dac to amp connection , yet having an output on the amp that is balanced will clean the signal.

Or third, just have everything balanced

Is maybe a better way to ask the question, which is having more of an impact of the three.

Where do you draw the line, which is most effective, because I do not seek to know is balanced better than unbalanced or what it provides. The setup itself is my question

409

I was wondering now if you were using balanced or unbalanced cables? Schitt was quoted to saying the magnius primary function was to be used with balance to receive that quality Schitt performance. To be cost effective the single ended was basically skimped. The magnius balanced should be much more flawless.

Maybe that’s why you prefer the Asgard 3, and I better understand now.

Almost certain the guy from SourceAV was using balanced with the magnius, which is why he had suggested it to be great with planars

410

Balanced interconnects have nothing to do with planar headphones, really.

In the case of the Magnius, different opamps are used for the single ended and balanced outputs. The balanced output’s operational amplifiers (opamps) probably sound better, because as you say, the DAC was designed to do balanced. It’s the only reason to get a Magnius, imo.

HOWEVER… Even if an amp has balanced input connections, the internal amplification process may not be “balanced”. It may not be differential either. It might just use the + wire, and dump the - to ground (or just be unused entirely). That’s what I’m hoping you learn by reading the link I put up there. It’s also why the statement that using balanced out of the Magnius is why someone would suggest planar headphones is nonsensical.

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411

Yes fully understood, I did not know those terms to apply them to the question. Just that is what meant by truly balanced or true balanced vs inverts; which maybe what you just stated. Not sure if inverters are what you explain, or if that is even the proper difference. I don’t know the precise terminology of course, sometimes they are interchangeable.

I think my edit portion of the reply to you may be more simple to get what I am trying to understand.

Also, like @Jsim suggested to go with the asgard3 and Sundara, rather than the magnius. I will probably Would need to upgrade to the Ananda or Arya if I’m going with the magnius or just choose a different amp and go with the Sundara.

But all this is again to figure out which dac I should go with

412

A couple yeas ago I went down the balanced cable rabbit hole (i.e., the headphones -> amp link). In testing I found no audible impact for planar headphones (i.e., Audeze, Dan Clark, HiFiMan; concur with @ProfFalkin). I did indeed hear reliable differences with dynamic drivers (i.e., Sennheiser HD-600 – huge benefits in the treble; Focal Elex – definitely worth it to reduce brightness/glare).

I tried balanced on my (budget) IEMs too. I heard no changes with several balanced armature models but a noteworthy improvement in clarity with my one dynamic model that had removable cables (Moondrop Kanas Pro). However, I returned to the factory single-ended cable. My IEMs often need to be used with phones, tablets, and PCs – I didn’t find enough value to carry a balanced source or adapter.

Balanced interconnects (DAC -> amp) operate in the theoretical benefit territory. It’s a low priority to me. As you’ve been discussing already, balanced often means different things or not what you think it means.

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413

Got it, just so you know I bought the Elegia.

Well from an understanding standpoint we know XLR is better I don’t doubt it, and I also keep hearing that it is for studio cable runs which are a lot longer than mostly what you will find for personal use. I am just more into the interconnects as you mentioned. Especially if I’m going with the Magnius.

Not certain if they correlate, but with toppings 50 and 90 people seem to give praise to the very low noise floor. So not so sure how audible whatever unnecessary sounds XLR’s prevent if nothing is coming through anyway. But I wouldn’t really be considering it too much with topping any way cause the A90 is the only one that has a balanced input.

I also see the staggering price difference, even for basic XLR’s. So trying to correlate the benefit to the value scale. Just for my knowledge.

This whole thing is a rabbit hole. But we all love music, so I am seeking the best experience possible and looking at all the venues. So I’ve made the pledge to proceed and want to see where things go and develop along the way thanks to all of your help.

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414

That’s the interconnects context, and seemingly not worth the time and money. These are very low on my priority list.

Even a cheap balanced cable (Ebay) can provide value with some headphones. IMO the $$$$ luxury cables are not going to meaningly improve quality over an electrically solid cheap cable. Pretty yes, personalized yes, but there’s a lot of voodoo and fairytales in cables.

I’m treble sensitive and some headphones that do not bother most people do in fact bother me (e.g., Sennheiser 600 family). I went with balanced headphone → amp cables in an effort to improve the tone and quality. For me this works, and I absolutely love balanced cables for this scenario. Others hear no changes.

415

You should kinda decide this before buying equipment.

The general rule is that if an amp is truly balanced (differential) then use the balanced output.

I think you said you have the Magnius. Schiit says this:

And, in purely practical terms, Magni Heresy and Modi 3 is a combo at less than half the price that does virtually everything Magnius and Modius does, as long as you don’t want or need balanced I/O.

So if you want to use single ended you could have saved the money and bought Magni instead.

There might be exceptions but in general differential amps are intended to be used with balanced output even if they offer a single ended output.

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416

No, that’s not it. I have used a balanced system for over a year, I know what it’s like; Needlessly expensive.

Once I got the Asgard 3 I was shocked to find out that it sounded so much better than my super impressive measuring balanced system.

Forget about balanced vs unbalanced, best for planars or dynamics or what have you. Think about amp vs amp and how they sound to your ears.

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417

I totally understand what you are saying @Jsim and @NickZ, it’s coming down to the same factor. Whenever it maybe, if I want to use balanced now I got to go purchase another dac and amp. You do not see that as wasted money? Dish out 200 now and then another 4 5 600?

As you can see now randomly out of the blue, I was dedicated to one headphones and now I got ones which can be balanced or unbalanced. If I had already made that purchase and wanted balanced output I would end up spending even more money I could have invested in another pair of headphones or had two separate balanced DACs for flavor.

I am not asking about which XLR cables to buy, just what makes the most sense IF I went balanced how to setup it up the most efficiently.

I’m not rich and if I was I wouldn’t be asking these questions. I’m just trying to get a grasp of everything, all the aspects.

Right now we are in the period where we got Black Friday/Cyber Monday. The doors are open I’m not one to hesitate on making a purchase. I can grab a much more expensive dac or amp, or even a much more expensive headphones than I expected.

I’m not trying to rush into anything. That’s why I ask these questions to come to a most suitable decision.

In addition, now I realize that going with magnius requires balanced everything if I want to use unbalanced I can not test differences and lose experience I seek. So it’s basically out of the question as I no longer have the choice to get great performance single ended.

I literally just learned this after I posted the question I posted earlier this morning. Which is why your feedback and anyone who’s knowledgeable is crucial.

Which is why I referenced you in the post following my question. Earlier, you told me go with the Asgard 3 over the magnius. When I relayed this information they told me go with the magnius. I got the reference from these forums that this is someone to go to learn and the information I gain is a reputable source.

So I end up going in circles, who’s right who’s wrong. Not that I doubt your judgment or expertise. So who do I listen too? My patience paid off and your conclusion was accurate.

It’s confusing for someone who doesn’t understand, so I just want you to hear me out and understand a situation is even more confusing.

You can also recall someone even questioned you why Asgard 3 over Magnius. We are all learning.

I only got Elegia because I doubt for one that they would last until Black Friday and second if they did it would probably be 300. Even the open box price was more than the amount I paid for brand new. I feel also that the experience is worth the 100 dollar savings as I’m trying to gain more experience since I have absolutely none.

If I want to stop asking these infant questions I need that and stop all of you from going in circles.

418

I totally understand your confusion. Basically what I’m saying is that I found my preferred amp to be one that isn’t balanced. What that tells me is that you don’t need a balanced amp to get your preferred sound. There just isn’t a single answer to that question, and this topic shows just how much more complicated this is.

In the end it just comes down to what you end up preferring yourself. You really just can’t predict that without listening to the gear in question for yourself.

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419

Keep asking. You don’t think you are the only person who has these questions, do you? When I was doing product management, the rule of thumb was that for every person that asked a question, there were 50-100 that had the same question, but who just wouldn’t ask.

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420

Completely unrelated to anything recently posted: Senn is no longer providing an XLR cable if you buy the 800S new, SE and pentacon now. I found this interesting, carry on.

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421

It seems much easier to adapt up from pentacon than down from XLR? XLR was always the easy path of least resistance for conversion to balanced.

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Its the first major company that I have seen do that as a standard offering, not that I have done much looking. Its been an option for some cables for a while but not simply a here you go thats all you got accompanying cable package.

Pentacon seems to be establishing itself, IFI and Cayin have picked it up and of course Sony originated it from what I remember.

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423

I think the questions that haven’t been asked are:

“Why use balanced interconnects?”

“Balanced” cables are needed to achieve differential or common mode signaling. This is purely done for noise rejection. To understand how differential signaling works, there are many good videos on YouTube that explain it. Basically, you send your audio signal down one wire, and an inverted signal down another wire. If EMI/RF noise is introduced to the cable, it is introduced to both wires equally. When the two signals reach the differential amplifier, they are compared, and only the differences are accepted. Because the noise affected both wires in the same way equally, there is no difference and noise is rejected.

While this noise rejection is theoretically desirable, practically speaking, it is complete overkill for passing audio signals between two components sitting next to each other on you desk or audio rack. Once you introduce an environment where there are a large number of noise generating devices between source and amp with long distances between them (like a recording studio or telephone system) then balanced becomes practical or even necessary.

Here is a 4 part video series explaining SE vs Balanced signaling. (For extra credit, look into common mode signaling as well.)

An extremely important thing to realize here is: Balanced signaling results in the SAME signal being generated at the destination as it was generated by the source, just like single ended signaling! There is no magic, no secret sauce, no alterations being made to the signal - by either method - which would make balanced a special unicorn type of connection method for 6 inch cable lengths where the introduction of noise is extremely negligible.

“Why use balanced headphone cables?”

First, despite the term “balanced” being used here, you get zero active noise rejection in a balanced headphone cable because it is not using differential signaling. Shielding and using twisted pair or braided wires may provide some measure of passive interference rejection, but there is nothing inside a headphone that can compare the differences and actively reject noise. Rather, what a balanced headphone cable does is provide dedicated paths for the + and - sides of each transducer in the headphone.

The amplifier you use determines whether or not the - channel is actively driven or is simply sent to a common ground. This means that even if the amplifier has a 4 pin XLR connector, it may still be using a single ended topology.

Thus, balanced headphone cables are only beneficial with some amplifier topologies, and are otherwise just single ended in disguise.

Here is an excellent article explaining it. You may be familiar with the source.

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424

All your science and engineering wont convince me… I need balanced cables for for anime!!

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425

Right. If you notice their Class A amp, the HDV 820, there are 2 pentaconn jacks + 1 XLR + 1 SE. They promise to power 4 senns at the same time.

My recent HD660S purchase also came with a spare 4.4mm cable, which was never been used. Not the headphone needs it anyway.

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