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Purchase Advice
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I think I’m slowly coming from there as well. Transitioning from the “must have” to “nice to have”. After hooking up the +16 dBu balanced outs from my entry level Focusrite, plugging it into a Direct Box I have here (to convert line level signal back to unbalanced) and hooking up to my HD600, SPL was much higher than my regular listening levels. Ignore sound quality for now.

That was the moment I thought my powerful differential amp (Liquid Platinum) was actually acting as an attenuator. :smile:

Once again, there are two balanced parcels here – which is always source of confusion:
a) Balanced signals from line level – e.g.: from DACs, USB interfaces, etc…
b) Balanced cables to headphones from the amp – i.e., 2 hots and 2 “grounds”.

Rabbit hole is in (b) in my view.

Cheers.

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Hi @HeadphoneNoob, I’m not an expert, but I am a few months ahead of you on this path, and I had all the same questions as you, so I felt that I would share some of the conclusions I came to, with the help of everyone here.

As you’ve found, this is a hobby that’s driven by opinions, so in a sense, everyone is right, even if they’re giving you completely opposite recommendations, because they’re telling you what’s worked for them. Your opinion is the best, based on listening to music, not to experts.

I’ve just read through all your posts, and it sounds like you’re trying to buy the best-sounding equipment within your budget that can handle any headphone you’re likely to buy in the future. Is that right? You’ve mentioned future-proofing a couple of times, and I’m guessing you came to the conclusion that “balanced equals future proofing”. Forgive me if that wasn’t the case, but assuming it was, maybe an alternative question for this forum would be “are there any amps within my budget that will drive and sound great with any headphone?”.

If you’re on a limited budget, there are a quite a few reviews on this forum that list amps that appear to be future proofed, meaning they can drive a lot of different headphones without a problem:
Torq’s review of the Magni 3+ and Magni Heresy ends with him saying the Magni 3+ provided “a generally more satisfying or involving experience while listening, and I liked the pairing with higher-end headphones even more”. He liked the Heresy too, but slightly less. And of course people with different tastes feel the opposite way. One important point that Torq makes is that he couldn’t tell the difference between some of the amps, and therefore the choice would come down to other factors, such as price, looks, or perhaps in your case, power.
Torq’s review of the magni 3 provides a more in depth view into the headphones that he uses for reviews. He really likes the combination of the Modi multibit DAC and the Magni. That multibit upgrade seems like a lot but Schiit’s multibit technology does have a lot of fans, including me (I have a Bifrost 2).
@lost33’s review of the Magnius says that he likes the amp and further down, states that he even prefers the SE output over balanced, and that the SE has plenty of power. He also sent back the Modius DAC because it didn’t have multibit.
@lost33’s review and @dncnexus’s review of the Asgard 3 say that they both like that amp and tested using a variety of headphones. Lost33 owns or has owned a lot of Schiit amps and is a really good resource for comparing them.

This was a long-winded way of saying that if you’re going to the Schitt store, listen to all of the above amps with the same DAC and see if you can tell the difference. If you can’t, then maybe just buy the cheapest, knowing that they all have tons of power, and will provide you with everything you need for several years, or until you get the itch to upgrade. If you can tell the difference, then buy the one that sounds the best within your budget. My humble opinion (and that’s all it is, an opinion) is not to worry about measurements, noise floor, whether it’s SE or balanced, as long as it sounds good to you. (I think that statement would get me flayed alive on other forums, but I’m hoping this is a nicer crowd!) I say this because based on what I read on other forums, I had to buy an all-balanced setup, and that I had to get the best measuring devices. Then I stumbled onto this forum and discovered that measurements aren’t the only thing that should influence my purchase. I still wanted balanced though, and I actually had the Bifrost 2 and Jotunheim in my cart, but before clicking on ‘Buy’, I paused, read a few more hundred posts on the forum, and realized that the sound of the Lyr 3 was probably more what I wanted, even though it was ‘just’ SE. But that’s my journey, not yours. If you end up with a balanced setup and you love it, then that’s great.

BTW, I just picked Schiit examples because they have a bunch of amps within your budget, and you said you were going to the Schiit store. You can apply what I said to any other amp manufacturer.

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There’s somethin’ happenin’ here
But what it is ain’t exactly clear . . .

There’s battle lines being drawn
And nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong . . .

I think it’s time we stop
Hey, what’s that sound?
Everybody look what’s going down

Exerpted from Stephen Stills’ song (memorable rendition by Buffalo Springfield), “For What It’s Worth”

(sorry, I couldn’t resist)

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Haha, Stephen Stills must have been a frustrated audiophile. This should be the theme song of our forum.

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Damn that was on point. Yes, I’ve been watching reviews and I mean they are not supported by XLR cable companies. But they exaggerate the benefit. So it creates confusion.

It seems like if everything is fully balanced topology wise than you need to go balanced. Otherwise you’re just opening another unnecessary rabbit hole

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Totally agree with you, trying to get the basics out of the way on my own.

Everyone here is extremely pleasant and wonderful. I know many people would not be like that, as you mentioned in other forums.

So I try to think about reasonable questions, which most of came directly from me. Most the other questions are coming for what I see in reviews.

But unlike most people I am merely trying to make the best decision. I realize an amp is more stable. I can use a good amp for years.

The interchangeable aspect will be the DAC. I would assume people would have 2-3 amps, but 5 DACs or more.

So I’m not targeting DACs anymore, as you stated it’s opinions, which may differ from my taste.

So it seems like you can really narrow down an Amp over a dac with feedback much more legitimately with opinions and feedback.

Just like you said with opinion, I may prefer balanced over SE, and therefore modify even the headphones I purchase. However with my future proofing drama I would like both to see if it’s worth it. Basically be able to test, rather than wonder.

Exactly like you guys said go with Asgard 3, not these guys who mentioned it. To help me be productive and not waste money. Greatly appreciated.

So I say to myself well Magnius is the same price. Has more options, and I made that choice by myself with my considerations in mind.

But again, not going down that road because it won’t give me opportunities to feel SE out.

Time and research worked out. Currently only see two magnius video reviews, the second one was 2 days ago.

The questions I asked yesterday is to understand what is the best way to save money in other terms or is it worth it to invest.

In the process I learned something new, and have an even better understanding.

So overall it’s win win you guys helped me again, and that’s the end goal to my questions and learning is beneficial for us both to avoid circles.

I write these long detailed messages for you guys to understand what’s going through my mind and correct me or dictate my mind.

I’m doing a lot of overkill thinking but it’s to understand as much as possible.

But it’s difficult to be an analytical person and factor everything in as I do. Most people don’t bother to do that. Because at the end of the day it’s my money and my opinion that counts by experience. Which I don’t have.

There’s a lot to learn when you know absolutely nothing and I’ve covered some good ground.

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Well what’s going down is I am legitimate. I’ve already proceeded on my journey and your time and efforts are not being wasted.

Much appreciation for all who correspond and provide feedback.

I’m a very positive person, and don’t wish to dampen anyone’s mood.

It’s sometimes difficult because like I said above most people don’t look into everything as critically as I do.

I will say I am pretty solid now and I’ve covered all my bases. Not that I won’t have any more questions as I am certain I absolutely don’t know everything. But the basics are founded. Don’t think I’ve missed any topic😅

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When you’ve put everything together, don’t forget to write a review. Maybe that will help the next person trying to figure out what to buy. :grinning:

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That’s the trap. A fully balanced differential amp can accept se input, because the end result of both RCA and XLR connectors is the same single signal. One just rejects noise and ground issues.

So, if you hear a DAC that sounds really good to you, don’t pass on it just because it doesn’t have balanced connectors.

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If you are going down the balanced route, don’t let the salesman convince you to buy expensive cables. Try Blue Jeans Cable. I’ve only used their regular interconnects, not their balanced, but the company has an excellent reputation on pretty much all the forums for good quality at a budget price.

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I’m not sure why you are so concerned with being able to test between “balanced” and “SE” at this point since most amps that I’ve seen that offered both types of outputs usually always perform better on the “balanced” output because that is where the designer/engineer put most of the effort. The few amps that I’ve tried that sound equally good from either output were quite high up in the price range ($2000+, Liquid Glass, Liquid Gold, MHA-100, DarkStar, and V280). The one thing that I haven’t seen you consider is the output impedance of the amps (and headphone) since this has a much larger influence on the sound IMO that the difference between balanced and SE, and even DACs for that matter. I’ve only been in this crazy hobby for 6-7 years and have spent quite a bit more than I would have ever imagined but its given me a lot of satisfaction over the years. If I were to do this all over again I’d start with a amp that has adjustable output impedance like a Project Ember or Teac HA-501 and wouldn’t even bother with balanced gear since I and all of my friends that are into high end audio couldn’t detect any sonic improvements when it came to DAC -> amp -> headphone connections. Studio work / large venue situations are the only time that a balanced configuration would be preferred/required.

I also have to disagree with one of your objectives, “future proofing” is a fools game IMO since technology is always changing and your hearing is going to change as you get older and for most/all of us it only gets worst.

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437

Guys I am not at all concerned, I’m just asking questions and leaving a fork in the road for options. Leave avenues open to experience and learn.

I don’t trust salesman. Can you imagine what would have happened going to an audio store not knowing anything. Plus they jack up their prices which is reasonable. I would be left with crap or something that is extreme overkill and broke.

I mentioned in a post that I reached out to the gentleman at SourceAV, a local high end audio speaker and headphone spot. I even said what he had told me and that it wasn’t a sales pitch because they don’t sell HiFiman or Schitt and as I said he told me that was a phenomenal idea. Which even created even more confusion cause he’s not saying that for me just to buy.

Now I can go in and make better decisions and choose what I want rather than getting ripped. Also support small business and help our community grow by leaving those resources available for others to have a chance.

I’m certain the internet is dominating since this is an expensive hobby, and it’s a way to cut costs down to provide lower pricing.

438

What I think you are missing, and several people have told you already, is that it is not possible to predict what your experience will be when you hit “play” just based on reading and research.

I know you think you are doing the reasonable and logical thing. But you simply cannot predict how you will feel until you hear it.

Yes, it makes sense to plan ahead. If you need to easily switch between headphones and speakers then you want preamp-outs and a simple control to switch between outputs. You can save money by getting the features you need at first and not having to re-buy.

But all this energy about balanced vs se, cables, dacs, etc. You have no frame of reference and therefore you will never stop spinning your wheels. You cannot know in advance what the right answer will be.

As others have said also, the only thing that matters is how you feel when you listen. The technical design of the components does not matter. There are good sounding products of all designs and bad sounding products of all designs.

You will eventually end up with a product that sounds good to you. You have no way to know in advance which product that will be.

I’m sorry to sound negative but I’m trying to show you why you are spinning your wheels.

This is also the reason way at the beginning people suggested buying the $200 JDS or Schiit stack. It will allow you to establish a frame of reference.

You are entitled to go at this however you want. I’m trying to say that you really won’t know anything until you hit play.

P.S. There is a saying from people who have been in “high end” audio for a while: You have to spend a lot of money to figure out that you don’t have to spend a lot of money.

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That’s a very true a reasonable reply. I’m going to Schitt to figure this out. I’ll go to Source AV first to get a demonstration and understanding what to listen for and expect and make a decision off of that.

At least I got the headphones to give me a crutch to lean on with what to expect. I’ll go with specific audio at SourceAV and see the replication with Schitt to further remove confusion and create comparison.

440

Lots of people do this to think. I recommend that you bring a magazine or tablet to pass the time. :upside_down_face: :wink:

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Yogi Berrra - “When you come to a fork in the road, take it.”

One good salesman test is to ask if a piece of equipment has LRF support. :phone: If he doesn’t burst out laughing, then run in the other direction. Or perhaps listen to his answer, or wait until he goes to look it up and his manager bursts out laughing.

Oh that’s great! Just like Dolly Parton, who said, “It takes a lot of money to look this cheap.”

:phone: Little Rubber Feet. Similar to asking for “video paint” or requesting a new guy in airport maintenance to bring you a “a flight line”.

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On difficult installs, we usually send the new guy to fetch sky hooks.

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Or asking a “farmer” if he has any macaroni seeds :grin:

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“Go get me a bucket of steam”

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Went to SourceAV, and had my little experience with a few DACs and headphones.

I spoke to the owner who came out, very pleasant gentleman.

I think the most important thing to take away from what he said, which maybe someone said here but I missed, is that besides power requirements the headphones themselves are the most important part of this entire equation.

Everything else will just heighten or dampen the characteristics, and it’s just what I like to hear.

We had on the menu the LCDX, 880S, and the Clear. From my personal standpoint the Clear was the best, 880, and last the LCDX.

So I think I have a little better perspective, and my orientation towards planar isn’t over. But I understand that’s not the only thing I should seek out as I had set my aim towards. Glad I went with the Elegia, even though it isn’t phenomenal it should possess some traits I prefer.

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