Agree with @Jsim, differences between DACs are quite small in relationship to differences between headphones and even amps so when someone says there is a night and day difference between DAC “A” and DAC “B” I tend to disregard these assessments for the most parts. As for tubes, I think this is where you can “fine” tune a DAC (some DACs use a tube) / amp which I feel is a much better place to invest in after headphones and I’d put cables/power cords even farther down the list than DAC’s of things that could influence the sound.
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There are differences, but in order of hardware significance: Headphones > Amp > DAC > Cables. If the test headphones (as more important item) are functioning at their maximum potential, then the rest can become a muddled blur. One really, really needs top-tier headphones to pinpoint differences with the small contributors (below amps).
AKM uses a proprietary smoothing technology called “Velvet Sound” with some chips.
Tubes have a predictable pattern of distortion. To my ears this involves smoother and easier treble, greater perceived loudness or energy vs. solid state at the same output or listening comfort level, and random low-end bass rumble. The significance and causes of tube characteristics are debated, but also have been subject to decades of efforts to replicate the sound in solid state. Much of the music you listen to was either recorded with tubes or processed with them to increase thickness and warmness – with experience you can sometimes pick this up but it is also diminished or lost in recording. Hearing a tube amp directly is much more distinctly different in my experience.
Tubes have a devout following in some parts of the audiophile community, and tube amps dominate the market with serious or professional electric musicians (e.g., guitar, bass) because of their warmth, thickness, and distortion characteristics. Some vocals are recorded using tubes too. Per other threads on this website, tubes may be the ultimate rabbit hole in audio.
Many reasons. My ability to hear details improved with better equipment and experience – over a period of years. Do not underestimate the growth possible. Some have thick wallets and are suckers for marketing – they couldn’t begin to hear the differences (see the Classic Coke vs. New Coke tests of the 1980s). Some shop based on ‘better’ technical measurements and may not have any experience before buying. The best measuring products tend to have a clear, glassy, neutral profile and some like it. However, this can also become harsh, brittle, and penetrating in the wrong combination.
That’s familiar to me and a big motivator of my upgrades. Perceived hiss suggests you are treble sensitive (in my experience). You might test this by either (1) trying Tidal as they cut off the top-end and make all music sound filtered and easy on the ears, (2) use a tone generator to check your hearing ability and frequency sensitivity, and (3) get an equalizer to modify various ranges. Cleaner headphones (e.g., Focal Clear), cutting the treble, and balanced amps [in specific cases] minimize hiss to my ears.
Modest value IMO. Start with headphones, then explore amps, then explore DACs. Then save your money on cables and take a nice trip to tropical beach or go out to a fancy restaurant instead.
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I love your post. It’s great to see your experience with this and reminds me of when I first got into the hobby. Thanks for still asking questions and relaying your experiences.
Ok, so, the hobby is kind of like an acoustic guitar. You get your first one, and it’s kind of inexpensive but appropriate for new players. You are new to playing instruments, and all the acoustic guitars sound pretty much the same. That’s kind of where you’re at.
You spend a long time learning how to play, and you get really familiar with your guitar. You learn some strings and picks work better for you, and how to tune it, and all the nuances of how it sounds when played certain ways.
Then one day, you stop by a guitar shop and you hear this amazing tone coming from a different guitar. You can immediately pick out the resonance, decay, and tonal differences between that guitar and the one you have, and notice what is improved and what is not.
You then spend your entire life savings obsessing over and on building a guitar collection.
… Or you don’t. Some people figure out it’s just not that important to them. One guitar is enough.
It’s preference and listening experience that makes all these things betterer (or not) for us because we have a frame of reference and have heard dozens (or for some of us, hundreds) of headphone and DAC/amp combos.
That’s why at first, so many of us recommended inexpensive - but still good sounding - equipment. There is no point getting a Focal Utopia, DNA Stellaris, and Schiit Yggdrasil if you don’t have the experience or frame of reference to know why it’s better than a Audio Technica M50X and Fiio E10K dac/amp. (Reading opinions on a forum or comparing manufacturers specifications doesn’t count as experience.)
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To answer your questions…
Is this hissing apparent on all the gear you have tried? Could it be the headphones?
Schiit’s AKM DACs are pretty much kinda average and neutral-warmish sounding. (On the other side of the coin, ESS Sabre DAC fanatics might call them dull and rolled off.) The Multibit dacs are a touch warm with better stage width and a more natural kind of presentation. Going from Delta Sigma dacs to Multibit is kind of similar to going from a solid state amp to a hybrid tube amp. It picks up a little bit of charm. NOTE - The 2 notable exceptions to this kind of sound are the Gungnir multibit DAC and Yggdrasil GS. Both have a more lean and sharp sound signature. I loved my Gumby (Gungnir Multibit) while I had it, but the Bifrost synergize better with my preferences.
The benefits of any of their DACs under $700 (that are not named Bifrost 2) are form factor, connection type, and price. To me they all sound a little different, but I don’t know if you will notice it yet. Multibit is my preference, but it might be something you shell out for later once you develop your own preferences.
Hope that helps.
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Yea definitely guys, that’s why I mentioned now I understand what you meant. I mean this is kind of like food, and I think again just like anything in life right you are blinkered into understanding the top of the pyramid.
What’s the best is at the top, almost always an absolute until something new is released. I was taking this hobby with those considerations. So it was creating confusion.
Of course, take into consideration, how could you blame me. The patterns fall into the same route. You can get a 5000 dollar dac lets just say. So we got to $100-5000. Which further drove me into this.
I think possibly the best way to go about audio is it is very much like food. Some characteristics we all love to taste and somethings I like, but you hate or vice versa.
With this I project my thoughts and experiences for you guys to take the gist of it and pass it on to others. I give my examples to help others better identify my point.
Or simply have others read what I wrote, but that’s difficult as the thread grows.
@ProfFalkin yes I was hearing it on all the equipment. So far with the 4 different headphones I’ve tried and I think essentially 5 dacs minus the variation. Even with switching the headphones I hear it on the same device.
The guy at AV told me it’s from vinyl, which is possibly where it is coming from. They used a CD. But this is off Roon and I know or assume that they are vinyl based or replication.
I was alive when we had cassettes and I mean I remember tape hiss or acknowledge.
Really need to figure that out. I don’t know if it’s best to describe it as hiss or static.
Experience wise I can tell you it feels like you’re watching a nice TV and the border of the TV just had static all the way around it and everything else is clear in the center but in an audible way
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Absolutely, it’s great that you’ve gotten your feet wet now so you’re not completely in the dark anymore. It’ll all make more sense as time progresses.
I think you’re just hearing the environmental noise floors of the recordings you’ve been listening to. With better equipment that noise floor gets better separated from the actual music and therefore more noticeable as an entity of its own, instead of “blending in” with the rest of the sound.
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I’m hoping it’s just a source thing, the music is clear. Just in the same way the image on a TV would be, it’s just the edges that have this sound. The hiss is completely separate from the sound. They are not interacting or it is not hindering the music.
Only thing to factor is all of what I listened to was classic rock. Even at SourceAV.
Then it’s almost certainly either tape hiss, from the original master recordings, or other noise that’s part of the recording-to-mastering chain.
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+1… This. 
I don’t know what kind of playlist they have there, but if it’s composed from songs from the 60s/70s, that’s most likely the reason.
A few days ago I made some empty WAV files as silent as -120dB. I cranked my amps all the way up hoping to identify any audible noise. In the balanced Liquid Platinum there was no noise. None. Zero. Nada. I did hear some EMI noise in the Liquid Spark, but I’ll never listen to that knob position either. 
If you do hear hiss when music is not playing, most likely someone’s job is on the line. You can’t go wrong gear-wise in these days. Specially from Schiit, under constant scrutinization by some folks out there.
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It’s nice that I’ve been away and have only done some very restricted posting the last couple of days. Like @ProfFalkin, I love your post. This is EXACTLY why I used to look for new users when testing things. I’ll bet if you read over the things we’ve all been saying, it really will start making a lot of sense.
I don’t recall which headphones you got. The Sundara? Whatever it is, it may need some “burning in” time to sound its best. So if you have only used them to test, and you got them new, you might hear a bit more if you try the same tests later.
What everybody said in replies is true. It’s not at all surprising that you didn’t hear much difference. Just like the guitar example, somewhere (on the forum) a year or so ago I presented an example from typography using fonts. Just because you learn what a serif is, doesn’t mean that it won’t take years to be able to identify fonts on sight, nor understand why a type designer used a particular font.
Right now, and until you train your ears, entry level is going to be just fine, especially sticking to consensus recommendations here.
Regarding the hiss - @Torq is probably right. Listen to some older - pre 1980 recordings streaming, and see if you hear it consistently. It’s tape hiss. Maybe someone can recommend/point out a nice recording that still has clear tape hiss. It’s something we all dealt with back in the day - did we want to run tape machines fast and reduce hiss, or record longer and live with more hiss. Even mastering studios made the same tradeoffs.
@generic said most of the things I was going to say.
Over the next year or so, you will probably decide to get or have the opportunity to try some different and better headphones. This will help train your ears. I still haven’t listened to some of the popular flagship headphones, ZMF, Focal Utopia, Senn HD-800s, or even the top 3 Stax.
I know from the speaker world, that the transducer matters the most - headphone, speaker, IEM. I know that moderately good speakers and headphones may not be able to resolve the differences in the rest of your equipment. I also know that REALLY GOOD speakers and headphones that are capable of the nuance, (once your EARS also have been trained) can be disappointing on basic equipment and will reveal your compromises.
So that’s how the path works. You start with things at one level. Your ears learn. You step up to a better headphone (or speaker) and want to improve the rest of the chain… repeat until wallet is empty and girlfriends have left.
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I don’t think this fits with the description. @HeadphoneNoob reported hiss at SourceAV and at Schiit. Both places and regardless of the DAC:
To me this speaks toward personal perception rather than bad sources or setups. As one sensitive to both amps or headphones, this has happened to me when spending extra time listening in a day or when trying new equipment.
Sometimes I hear instant hiss and in the past even perceived room acoustics and concert echoes as hiss. Per track-by-track testing, hiss often arises because of source complexity rather than energy or compression, and especially follows from high-range randomness. Hiss can arise with strings, brass, electric guitar, and even badly recorded vocals.
Yes, it must ultimately be associated with the background sounds of the recordings. However, it is something that individuals perceive rather than something associated with compressed sources or something that bothers most people.
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Glad to hear you’ve gotten your ears on gear that hopefully allows you to make an informed decision, even if there are still things unresolved. Future proofing is nice in theory, but can be elusive. If you can’t hear the difference and it pleases your ear at present, more money potentially saved in your pocket (for now, enjoy it while you can).
As with most things, practice, practice…and is part of the process/journey. See link: https://training.npr.org/2017/01/30/quiz-do-you-have-the-ears-of-an-audio-producer/.
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Quiz above was too easy. The one down below is a little more challenging:
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Congrats on setting the curve! I wanted to lay the foundation before proceeding to intermediate.
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Hi guys, I was wondering if I could get some thoughts. I currently own a GS-X Mini, which I feed from a Holo Cyan via XLR. My headphone of choice is the mighty Verite, and I’ve now ordered a ZMF Pendant to add to my collection.
My question is, DAC-wise, I’d like to step up to the next level to complement the Pendant. My two main options are the latest Yggdrasil, or the Holo Audio Spring 2 KTE. I like the Cyan and I assume that the Spring 2 will only sound better, but since the Pendant is not a balanced amp, I’ve been told that I’ll only be using half of the DAC and it therefore might not be the best option for me. I’ve also been told that the RCA output of the Yggdrasil isn’t that great.
Does anyone have any experience with these combinations?
Thanks.
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I just purchased a VO, Pendant and BF2 (VO and Pendant arrive next Monday)
I went with BF2 due to great reviews and feedback (see @Torq review on this site for example and his top 10 DAC list)
For SE connection, I’ve seen many describe BF2 as a mini yggy. And as you say, Pendant is SE too.
So rather than go with the yggy, I went BF2 and put the cost difference into zachs 2K cable and NOS tube selection and picked up an Allo USBridge for streaming
I can’t offer any feedback on direct listening yet, but maybe try a BF2 to compare to your HS2 to see if you prefer the schiit sound to your Holo Spring?
If you prefer the HS sound, you could return the BF2 to schiit for 15% restocking fee within 14 days.
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Thanks, I’ve actually already got a BF2 and ended up prefering the sound of the Cyan. I think I’ll test both with the Pendant (whenever it arrives) and see which ‘house sound’ pairs best with it. My concern would be the Spring potentially not living up to its potential by using a SE amp with it.
Ah… That’s trickier then
Recommendations!
Looking for an Amp for the Final D8000 Pro.
I want to add in some warmth and ensure excellent bass heft/slam.
Currently thinking some sort of Class A type thing. I guess by that I mean not some light small opamp / thx thing.
Let’s say up to $1000 USD. Few below I can hunt in the price range used in Aus.
Auralic Taurus?
Questyle CMA600i?
iFi iCan?
Flux FA10?
Rebelamp?
Schiiiit cheap Jotunheim?
Violectric V280/281/220?
As I continue to dive deeper, and again this is just for general knowledge, I was watching a video by Beekhuyzen where he is pushing the thought that now a days computers themselves are not made for audiophiles. That there’s a lot of electronic noise especially the more power your pc has. Mine is 850W and I also have a lot of energy obviously flowing in my PC.
Now on my motherboard specifically it is all electronically separated. Somewhat like some dac amps have internally. Now his discussion of course is while connecting an external dac. Which is the same thing I am going to do.
Reference
Regardless, he says all the things going on in the PC create bad audio hygiene.
His suggestion was going with a raspberry pi for audio or a network bridge for example the SOtM sMS200. To isolate the electrical interference that may occur.
Just wanted to get your feedback and thoughts on this, and I am obviously assuming that this possibly goes hand in hand with higher audio grade equipment.
My thoughts are:
$10 usb cable with ferrite rings.
Problem solved.
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