General purchase advice: Ask your questions/for advice here!

I need advice!
5089

You have some very solid building blocks. At this point, my opinion is that you’d do well to consider what you want in a different headphone rather than play with the DAC and amp. Granted, you’ve put out some things that upgrade the chain, but your limitations - and the things that will make the most difference are the ones closest to your ears.

The 6xx does scale, but the steps get shallower as you go up. The 6xx sounds pretty miserable if underpowered. You took care of that. You have taken the 6xx at least 90% of the way. I find that it benefits from a balanced connection and a better DAC, but it’s not a hit you over the head OMG I never heard these before change, like you can get with better headphones.

I also recently considered the Hifiman EF400 and ended up getting a Sabaj a20d 2022 edition for one location and a FiiO K9 Pro ESS for general use when I’m not at my computer and main stack (Schiit Bifrost 2/64, to Lyr3 or STAX amp)

What kind of budget are you considering? And what do you like to listen to? What do you like or dislike about your current headphones? I think if you can answer this, we can do a reasonable job of pointing an upgrade path.

I’m a noted tightwad, and it took me ummm. 3 or 4 years to bring myself to spending more than $1K on headphones. There’s a lot of choice, especially if you’re willing to do a bit of buying, selling and considering used.

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5090

I think getting the Bifrost 2, whether getting the OG used or the current model, would be a major upgrade for you over the Modi Multibit. I have both DACs in different setups, and the Bifrost is noticeably superior. I have the Bifrost OG with the AD chips (like the Modi Multi), and it has better bass, better imaging and soundstage, and just sounds better, what can I say?

I’ve used the Bifrost with both the Jot 2 and the Burson Soloist GT, it’s a great DAC and sounds very good with both. I did upgrade to a Yggy OG, which really did take things to the next level :sunglasses: :+1: I think the Bifrost would go well with either of the amps you mentioned, and your Rebel Amp. I don’t know the Rebel from personal use though.

While both the Jot 2 and Burson Soloist 3XP are excellent amps, I think they are more in the category of a side-grade to what you have already. All the reviews I’ve seen and user feedback of the Rebel Amp say it’s very good or excellent. Sure the other amps are balanced, and can deliver more power, but do you need it? They would sound different certainly, but maybe not better.

I’m not trying to discourage you from trying something different, but I think you would see greater benefit from a new DAC, and looking at the headphone side of it like @pennstac said.

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5091

I concur with @robson about the Bifrost 2 and 2/64. The now obsolete BF2 transformed all my amps and headphones in a good way. The BF2/64 delivered a 10% to 20% improvement over the BF2. It has better staging, definition, nuances, and clarity. In my wife’s words “It’s very gentle on the ears.”

Before moving to the BF2 and RebelAmp more than a year ago I prioritized headphones over DACs and amps. Not any more. If the signal quality degrades early along nothing can bring it back. Nice equipment can mask problems, but the signal is still eroded and has limited potential.

Be aware that the new Lyr 4 (or Lyr+) can switch between SS and tube modes. So you may get a Jotenhiem + tube option for $599, but I have no experience. In SS mode the Lyr 4 uses built in decay mode MOSFETs (i.e., the same thing sold as a tube plug in LISST). I said nice things about the LISST / Lyr 3 combo in the Lyr 3 thread.

I do agree with @pennstac that a headphone tier upgrade can transform your experience. I’m mostly using the HD 800 S and Clear these days – the HD 600 and HD 6XX sound fuzzy, narrow, and truncated.

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5092

I’m not sure I want another headphone (I know that sounds like blasphemy in this community). I’m very picky about the physical characteristics of headphones, particularly the weight. Basically anything over maybe 320 grams is just too heavy for me. Also I’ve found headphones where the cups don’t swivel properly I find profoundly uncomfortable; I couldn’t wear the K361 for any length of time because of the lack of cup swivel for example.

On top of that, I haven’t really been impressed with planars, I don’t really like their timbre or their lack of macrodynamics.

That all leaves me with a very small number of options for upgrades, but that doesn’t make me too sad since as I said the headphones I have sound great so why bother? I did try the HD800S, which is the most logical upgrade, but I thought the treble was a bit much (though the soundstage was admittedly spectacular). Otherwise there’s stuff like Grados, but I tried the lower end models and thought the treble was too bothersome there as well. (I don’t mind neutral-bright sound signatures necessarily, but those things are all a bit much. Too much treble is so frustrating–I thought the DT770 had one of the best builds I’d ever seen and found them super comfortable, but I couldn’t listen to them for any length of time without getting a headache.)

The only expensive 'phone I’ve even been thinking about is the IE600, but I’m not sure I spend enough time listening to IEMs to make it worth the upgrade over the IE300, which I love (though I admit I sometimes EQ down the treble on those too). And, you know, you obviously don’t need a powerful amp for most IEMs.

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5093

I admit the idea of the solid state amp you can turn into a tube amp is quite intriguing, I have been giving the eye to the Lyr+. I do wonder if the solid state mode would be a downgrade from the RebelAmp though.

The BF2 does look tempting. One of my concerns with getting it alone for the RebelAmp is that most balanced DACs don’t sound as good from their SE output, but I think I did read that the BF2 was an exception in that regard. Has anyone done a comparison between the new BF2 and the Ares II? (The Lyr+ also is only SE.)

(My limited space is also a reason I’ve been avoiding tube amps–the RebelAmp is already pretty huge for where I’m using it, and it’s part of what makes the EF400 tempting to me, everything in one box. The Bottlehead Crack, for example, which has a reputation for being the best for the 6XX, looks like it wouldn’t fit on my desk at all. Also, besides the fact that I’d have to pay the premium for one that’s already assembled since I don’t know how to solder, I get the impression that it, like a lot of OTL amps, don’t have a low gain mode for my more sensitive headphones and I don’t really want to keep two amps around for different headphones. I know, again, sounds like blasphemy, but I’m trying to keep things reasonable.)

5094

See my brief comment about the Lyr 3 / LISST versus RebelAmp in the Lyr 3 thread. Repeated and expanded here: Yes, it’ll be a technical downgrade. However, the Lyr 3 / LISST is very easy on the ears and fuller/more encompassing. With back-to-back testing some content comes across as dry and thin on the RebelAmp (but it is NOT at all a dry or thin amp). I’m gravitating toward the LISST over the Rebel for the HD 800 S, and have often used the even less technical Bottlehead Crack.

I know nothing of that thesis, but use the BF2/64 mostly on single-ended amps.

Upgrade the DAC. My HD 600 screeched and whined on cheap DACs. I hated it on some of my old budget gear. The HD 800 S and Focal Utopia are powerful magnifiers of upstream issues.

I don’t have a lot of space for headphone stuff myself, so my gear forms a stacked and creative pile. But it all fits. If forced to reduce to a single daily-driver setup I’d strongly consider the BF2/64 and Lyr+ combo. After moving to tube amps my interest in solid state fell. I have no intention of upgrading solid state beyond the RebelAmp, as its daily use has long lagged behind the BHC and is now lagging behind the Lyr 3 / LISST too.

Yes. The BHC moves the 6XX to a very fun and engaging zone, but I rarely choose it over the HD 800 S. Don’t DIY unless you are into it, as many things can and will go wrong. Pre-built OTLs aren’t too different. I got a very cheap DarkVoice 336 for testing – it’s basically a pre-made Chinese BHC with different tubes. While not quite as clean or extended as the BHC, it’s decent with the 6XX. Still, I intend to sell the odd and flawed DV as my testing wraps up and as my gear moves forward.

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5095

@ericrosenfield I agree with @pennstac consider headphones. I own HD650’s and with in the last year upgraded to ZMF Aeolus. Very nice step up from a long time HD650 listener. The detail and presence or rather immediacy with more slam was greatly appreciated. ZMF Aeolus won’t break the bank and not much heavier than Sennheisers. I like planar’s and have had the best models here in my home for extended periods. They were heavy and slightly more technical in their presentation over the ZMF’s which are musical.

MacBook/Roon–>USB AudioQuest Carbon–>Holo Spring 3 KTE DAC–>Quicksilver Audio Amp OR Pass WHAMMY Amp–>ZMF Aeolus or HD650

BTW I also own HD580 and they are absolute yick compared to the HD650’s and especially the ZMF’s. In every dimension the HD650’s beat the tar out of HD580’s. If you are not hearing much difference between the HD560 and HD560’s then you may want to upgrade the DAC first.

I host a popular local AM radio show and HD580’s are used exclusively as on air station monitors for the AM broadcast. No guest one wants to listen to the HD580’s after hearing even the HD650.

Not saying enormous groups of people aren’t in rapture with their 500 series headphones, just the spacing between what you already own should be wider in presentation quality.

More comments on equipment and “what’s next journey” from HD650’s:

CanJam events are terrific places to compare. I’ll be at SoCal CanJam next Saturday.

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5096

The Aeolus is 473 grams, while the HD6XX is 260 grams. That’s… that’s much heavier. Honestly, I wish companies like ZMF would just ditch the fancy wooden cups and things, I know they look nice but they’re heavy and bulky and you know if they stuck plastic on there it would weigh a fraction as heavy. (How that would effect the sound I have no idea.)

I like the 560S a lot, it has a great tonal balance and much larger soundstage than the 6XX, and is far less amp picky. It doesn’t have nearly the resolution though, and the timbre and “fullness” of the 6XX is superior. If Sennheiser came out with something with the tonal balance and soundstage of the 560S but everything else like the 6XX or 600, that’d be something I’d probably want to buy.

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5097

Based on your requirements - specifically the weight range - it really does seem like the HD 800S is the logical upgrade, with a bit of EQ implemented to subdue the treble peak, or a tube amp to tame things. If I was you, I’d personally pick one up from a dealer with a decent return policy, tame that treble and then upgrade to a better DAC and/or a tube amp if EQ isn’t helping enough. It really could be your endgame system.

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5098

Try a used GRADO RS1e or the new equivalent and pay for these hybrid earpads:
https://www.beautifulaudio.biz/grado-earpads-headbands

This combination does NOT have the bothersome treble of the lower end GRADO, is light and very comfortable (I got the large size hybrid pads). They are like a much cleaner, more detailed version of my HD6xx with a significantly wider soundstage. Bass with these pads is excellent. Only downside is that the GRADO cable is still heavy and awful. Grado does not do themselves any favors with the stock pads, although I do find the foam OK for comfort.

The cups swivel properly. I can assure you that there are limits to mid-level Sennheiser. And it won’t cost you like the Senn 800S or Focal Clear.

I will say that you can rely on @generic 's comment regarding the BiFrost. Paired with the Rebel Amp, you should be in good shape for a long time.

I will reiterate the comments about scaling. The 6xx does scale. The way most people realize it is that over the years they upgraded a bunch of other stuff and pull out their 600/650/6xx and listen and are pleased that it sounds better than they recalled. So they put it on old stuff, and it sounds like they recalled. That does NOT mean that a <$250 headphone will “scale” to where it’s better than an honest >$700 headphone. It just means that it will be incrementally better, and that increment can be small but noticeable.

I just left a 25 year review of my Sennheiser HD-580 in the Sennheiser HD-58x topic. Yes, I bought it retail very shortly after it came out and have used it for decades. It sounds better on decent equipment, but it does NOT continue to improve after you pair it with equipment less than what you already have. An example of what does not scale.

I’m not an IEM guy - I feel about them the way you do about heavy headphones. Comfort issues. So I can’t comment about that.

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5099

@NordicDave is a wise man. First he starts by agreeing with me. I have no experience with any ZMF, but have heard from others what Dave is saying.

@NordicDave continues to be very wise. He agrees even further with me and provides additional examples. It’s almost as if he read my mini-review of them. I’ve heard some other 500 series Sennheisers, and had a similar impression.

Way to go Dave! :rofl: :beers:

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5100

Keep in mind the distinction between a tube hybrid and an all tube amp.

The Lyr+ is a tube hybrid meaning the output stage is solid state.

A full tube amp has no solid state stages as they are all tubes.

This is not a statement of what is better/best, just a note so that you look at equipment which meets your desires.

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5101

Would you recommend the small pads or the large ones?

Also those sure are expensive. Are you sure the TTWJ Flat Pads or something won’t do?

5102

I have the large ones. The large make the headphone an over-ear, and I think probably are better for bass. The small ones might keep them as an on-ear. Everyone I know who has tried has liked the large ones - sample of 2 with one on the way.

Yes they are expensive. They are hand stitched and custom made to measure for your headphone. Some people have tried other pads - but I have never heard anyone who has used the Beautiful Audio pads regret buying them. I sure as hell don’t. You’ll note in my original comment I say “and pay for these hybrid earpads”. I know the thought about paying for a pad that costs more than Grado’s first three models of headphone…

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5103

So our man Resolve says in his review that the RS1e has a frequency response he thinks is a “confused mess”. In your opinion does the pads fix the FR or do you just like the way it sounds and have different taste than Resolve?

Edit: review: Live Review of the GRADO RS1e and RS2e - YouTube

5104

@Resolve has a more practiced and educated ear than I do, but you need to realize that everybody does hear differently. Audio is more complicated than people think. Shape of your ear, you age, lots of things make a difference. In general, I find that @Resolve 's comments are quite helpful to me and we usually hear similar things.

The pads absolutely do change and improve the FR - others have commented on this. It is a significant difference. @Resolve would, I’m sure say that he needs to hear for himself.

I find that I can rely on @SenyorC and when he chooses to be specific, @Lothar_Wolf’s comments on headphones. I suspect Lothar’s hearing is in the same range as mine - we are both older. I know that I still test well up to at least 15khz - 16Khz as I’ve tried to protect my hearing during my mis-spent youth.

@Torq also has exceptional hearing and although he reviews and comments less now, his thoughts were always reliable. I know his ear for nuance is far better than mine. @generic also seems to have comments regarding FQ, detail, soundstage and so forth that when we have similar equipment, we generally corroborate each other’s listening.

I do agree that in it’s raw state, with the stock foam pads that the Grado’s FQ is not optimal. Many people find that is true of stock headphones. I went through a period where the RS1e got a LOT of my ear-time. This is when I went first for the “tape mod” then for the Beautiful Audio pads. Then it became my travel headphone of choice because it is easy to drive with modest DAC/AMPs that I travel with. Equipped as I had it, I found it in every way - soundstage, detail, FR - (especially the high end which is really quite difficult to resolve properly with the 6xx) to be better than the 6xx. Not surprising given the price differential. I also listened to the Hifiman HE-560 v2 quite a bit at that time.

Then I upgraded my e-stat amp, and bought the Nectar Hive, which became my go-to headphone. And now, I’ve gone with the Rosson Audio RAD-O, which I switch off with the Hive. The Rosson does not seem to need EQ, and comes with a great travel case. I have decent DAC/AMP stuff at all the places I usually go, but my main stack is the BF2/64 going into Lyr 3 or the STAX amp.

As I’ve now got better DAC/AMPs where I usually plop myself at home when not at the computer, or when I travel, I tend to travel with the RAD-O instead of the Grados, unless I’m going to be in a hotel or something for work, when I fall back to the Grados and the IEM-like Audeze LCDi3

This may give you some idea of what my headphone journey has been. It’s relevant because I listen to lower-end stuff in general than @Resolve and this is just a hobby for me. So is riding an ebike and flying stunt kites, collecting certain antiques, and having regrets for not saying yes to various things that would have provided both fun and trouble for me 30 to 50 years ago…

I listen to classical, world, jazz, and rock, but I haven’t kept up well with new stuff. I do listen to fusion/urban sometimes and even k-pop, which isn’t as good as afro-pop was 20 years ago or Caribbean music as it went from dub through rocksteady toward reggae. I also dabble in folk, and bluegrass, but NOT country music product.

Maybe you should be careful trusting the judgment of someone who enjoys the Leningrad Cowboys (check YouTube) even if there is “Core Team” after his name.

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5106

Interesting!

And in your opinion is the RS1 the Grado to get?

5108

In my experience Grado and Beyer release products that have either fatal treble, require EQ/pad swaps, or match your ears. Try before buying, or be able to return.

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5110

Absolutely terrific impressions. I very much get a sense from where you’re coming from. :wink:

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5111

To me it’s helpful to think of Grados as a different way to go at headphones rather than being in the same category as the headphones that are mostly discussed here (Focal, Hifiman, Sennheiser, etc.).

Grados are on-ear so they don’t have cups that seal which by itself creates a different presentation.

The typical Grado house sound was rather hot but they have been toning things down with the new drivers in the X series (60x, 325x, etc.) and also the Hemp.

You probably wouldn’t want to buy a Grado without hearing it first since it’s a different animal in both presentation and tonality.

But for me the 325x sounds like music where the sealed cup headphones just don’t work.

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