Off Topic : Complaints Thread

Let the public decide what they think. I was using Costco as a comparison to excessive restocking fee. Its a profit for effort to repack and resell. Most people will sell it for $764 on open market than take $135 and give it back to manufacturer. Capitalism- let the consumer decide. To buy or not to buy. Try or not to try. I think of Zappos- shoes at at huge discount and free returns. I think of Benchmark, Magnepan, gato-audio, SVS Speakers Audio, devialet audio, Outlaw Audio, ORB Audio, Emotiva, space-tech-lab, the list goes on… all internet direct to consumer offerings with in home trials. TESLA CARS ALLOW A RETURN WHAT??? YUP- That’s the way of the future- and if you are saying $899 doesn’t include a huge margin for returns/reconditioning - to me - it’s a glorified Dynalo/HeadAmp Gilmore Lite Mk2 which costs $499 and they allow free returns at that price of $499 if you don’t like your purchase. As a kid growing up- I worked for stores like The Wiz, PC Richards, Crazy Eddies- returns are part of the sale- if no one offered free returns no one buy or try anything- or be very reluctant to buy in first place. 15% is excessive. Its a black box - I see no way in hell $135 to recondition or test - not in a million years. Later in life I owned a 15,000 sq ft showroom where I sold all kinds of things for the home. I also use to manufacturer a Cigar Humidor box by hand and had 5 sales people country wide in USA. 15 States were selling my humidor. I always took returns for FREE always! Its a cost of doing business. Especially today with lack of brick and mortar stores - e-commerce is all about try at home cut the middle man out and maximize profit. Imagine on line retailers or manufacture NOT allowing a return policy - I would stay far away from businesses charging for a return and I will so here as well. (Included are some pics from things I’ve built from ground up. The reason I include this is because I know manufacturing, retailing and web sites and audio.) I speak not to be harsh or to be a fan boy of any one company - I just think its a black box and needs nothing close to $135 in reconditioning for returns if in pristine condition… not sure if people here feel $135 is excessive but I certainly do.

1 Like

Ok @whatugot I think you have said your peace… I think that @tomchr has laid out his reasoning… I’m calling this a difference of opinion and think it is a closed topic… Tom has been very gracious about responding to you and giving his reasonings in a well written “nice and cordial” manner.

You have laid out your thoughts on the matter… though I disagree with how you approached it, I respect your opinion… now, we can put this to bed… and continue with more civil interactions on the forum.

Cheers,

Tyler

19 Likes

Just taking this specific disagreement as a jumping-off point for the following comment/question. While I understand why a person would want to try-before-buying for any of a nuimber of product types/categories-- is this some sort of legal and/or moral right?

People just seem to assume it is a right - I think it takes rational argument(s) to support that assumption.

2 Likes

Oh such an opportunity for mischief! Thank you!
I present the following poll.

  • I did sleep with my spouse before marriage.
  • I did not sleep with my spouse before marriage.

0 voters

Now that I’ve stoked the flames with gasoline, I think I’ll be sneaking off to another topic.

5 Likes

Can I write in “ex” in one of those questions before voting?

1 Like

Sleeping isn’t the issue. I’ve slept near many people of all ages and genders on planes, trains, and in cars…

3 Likes

In Germany, you have a 14 day period in which you can send the product back (online only). Charges are with the seller. This does not apply to open-box however.

People need to be reminded the world never was a free-for-all. Cost for business to deal with people who can not make up their mind is through the roof.

2 Likes

I grew up in Denmark. There, sales are final. You do not have the right to return a product after purchase. A vendor can choose to offer a return policy, but unless the law has changed since I moved, there’s no right to return a product.
There, you do have the right to a two-year warranty, however.

In North America, return policies tend to be more generous (but also more commonly abused). By contrast, the warranty terms tend to be much shorter (except on cars for some reason).

Should someone return the amp without ever opening the box, for example if they were to refuse to receive it, I would be happy to reduce or eliminate the restocking fee. They’d still be on the hook for shipping, however. I would also expect them to contact me and let me know the amp is coming back, though.

I do know of a high-end headphone brand (who shall remain anonymous) that seriously regretted engaging with one of the retail chains to sell their products. People were buying kilo-buck headphones only to return them when the credit card bill came due. It ended up costing the company dearly.

Tom

4 Likes

I could not make complete sense of German law concerning this. For anyone wanting to take a look, Section 355
Section 433 and following make a lot more sense in comparison (product is free of defects, you own it after buying and so on)

1 Like

It is actually a European Union law that stipulates that any purchases online can be returned within 14 days without reason.

However, the product must be completely as received, with no damage, and all accessories and original packing included etc. There are a few exceptions to this law, such as underwear, medication, food and other “higiene” related items that can only be returned if unopened.

The shipping fees can however be the responsibility of the buyer. Although many companies will offer to refund them.

This is due to a person not being able to try or view a product in person while purchasing online and was aimed at sellers not being able to sell products that are poorly represented and described etc.

Warranty periods are different between countries in the EU, Spain for example is 2 years and cannot be void due to a missing sticker (the typical “Warranty Void if Removed”). However, if the seller can prove that the product has been misused, dismantled or damaged, then the warranty is void (like the stickers that change colour inside a phone that has been in contact with water or humidity, that I swear are installed already coloured in some cases!!).

4 Likes

I deleted my above post as I liked and agreed with the post by @TylersEclectic putting an end to the discussion, then I carried it on with my post.

5 Likes

oh, no worries, I should clarify we can continue talking about it in general, lets just not target one specific person/brand :wink:

I think it is a good discussion, and has merit, I just didn’t really like the tone or specifically calling out of one person/brand for how they handle it.

I think companies big and small have interesting approaches to this problem…because it is a problem… how do they get products into consumers hands without it being a detriment to themselves or cause them to go out of business (worst case scenario lol) or have to jack up the price to offset these costs… no right answer…but interesting. Also, how do they do this without alienating potential customers etc… it is not an easy thing to tackle.

7 Likes

Lol, ok, in which case I have undeleted my post, luckily it was less than two hours so I didn’t have to write it again :smile:

2 Likes

One defective product can indeed drive a company out of business. This nearly happened to Apple computer with the 1980s Apple III. Many small firms have gone out of business due to a single lawsuit or a cancelled contract too.

Bingo! This entire discussion follows from limited insight on the true costs of doing business. Private business is about risk/reward and there are no guarantees or free lunches.

Plenty of companies pass the costs along to buyers, cut jobs, cut employee benefits, or are funded by the savings and debts of the owner. Those stolen credit card databases often result in widespread fraud, while buyers/balance carriers pay for the credit system.

Given government support programs, some companies are kept afloat by taxpayers despite weak products (e.g., Chrysler in the 1980s and again after the 2009 housing bubble collapse).

If you want to get your tail in a knot, just decide if you want to blame the consumer, the vendor, or the government. Each party can and does do things wrong.

4 Likes

I think let the consumer decide if they want to pay a restocking fee or move on to some other brand that sells direct to consumer without a fee charge.I do think the consumer should pay for shipping both to and from when getting their refund. Anything to make more sales with little criticism- if items are returned in perfect order no charge before trial period. I just discovered OLLO Audio Headphones - " EVERY PURCHASE COMES WITH 30 DAYS TRIAL We know it’s difficult to make an educated decision based on tech specs and reviews. The only true way to know if it’s for you is to try it out. 30 days money back, no questions asked. " I couldn’t have said it any better myself- and I will say that headphones are very delicate that you actually put on your head and ears- of course! much more reconditioning than say to a black box with no display. Kennerton & Fischer headphones does the same thing and THANK GOD they do. I do think each company has it’s own policy for returns - and so it goes the free open market. It comes down to economics - can I afford to take a chance. I definitely wouldn’t compare it to renting equipment- that’s a little far fetched for a $899 retail item. When I rent a RED WEAPON HELIUM 8K camera which retails for $25,000 and a 7 day rental is $1200 thats roughly a 4-5% fee to rent. When I rent a $30,000 car for a week thats roughly $200-300 for the week. They are in the rental business. They are relying on a small percentage to loan out the equipment. When Tom mentioned rentals- I laughed hard. He is trying to make a sale - earn customer loyalty and create good will for commerce. And when you can not demo something in a retail store- and are selling consumer direct without middlemen- I think a good policy is a try out period. The consumer is responsible to return the item (and pay for shipping to and from) and pay for any reconditioning if it is needed as Benchmark does as Magnepan Plannar Speakers does and as Ollo, Fischer and Kennerton does with headphones. How can a consumer make a choice without trying them out? From reviews? From specs? Nah. When I bought my PASS amp - I had a trial period. When I bough my Theta Dreadnaught amp I had in home trial period. When I bough my Magnepan 3.6r speakers I had a in home set up by dealer and a return period. My Lexicon equipment same deal. I would never buy a piece of gear that didnt allow me to make up my mind. If some one said you can try it at home BUT we are going to make 15% restock fee - I wouldn’t take the risk unless the item was very exotic rare or hard to repack. And If I damaged it well then I guess I bought it no matter what.

As I said earlier: You’re more than welcome to organize a loaner tour. If ten people participate in the tour and each pitch in, say, $50 + shipping to the next guy and the amp is offered up for $500 at the end of the tour, someone will get a screaming deal and you’ll make $100 for your efforts to organize the tour. That’s a pretty good ROI for a $899 investment in my view.

Anyway. I think I’ve made my rationale for my restocking fee clear. I should also add that I settled on 15% as the market survey I performed before I designed the amp indicated that was a reasonable return fee. I had about 80 respondents in that survey.

You obviously disagree with my decision. That’s fine. You have the right to disagree and to express your disagreement. I don’t understand your rage, though. If you’d channelled even half of the energy in your rage into organizing a loaner tour, you’d probably have the tour organized by now.

You can choose to be part of the problem or you can choose to be part of the solution. It’s all up to you.

I’m not changing my policies just because Some Guy on the Internet rages about them. I’ll read your response, should you choose to type one. But I see no need to add further to this topic. I believe I’ve made my rationale for my return policy clear, and really don’t have anything more insightful to add. It seems we’re beating the stain where the dead horse used to be at this point.

Tom

10 Likes

It took about 2 minutes to find these policies with restocking fees from various places. Companies often start with more lenient return policies and change them over time as people treat brand new items as a rental period, especially with Amazon return abuse so prevalent. If you want to trial an item, send a message to the dealer and they might have an open-box item to lend you. Dealers appreciate that and are 100% more likely to make something work for you.

9 Likes

We had a bunch of projects cancelled due to vivid meaning we had to return the majority of equipment for them. This involved returning over $1M in Harman equipment in the US, for which we paid the 15% restocking fee.

The same goes for many of the other companies we had to return to.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If the policy is not disclosed before hand then I can understand being angry and even refusing to pay, but usually these things are pretty clear before purchase.

(BTW, these were all unopened items, so we didn’t even try them).

3 Likes

We don’t want to nuke this thread so let’s keep the off topic complaints constructive as there have been some good arguments for and against in here. And as always, let’s keep the tone friendly.

4 Likes

Best Buy, a big, giant company, charges 15% restocking fee on some items.

image

If we talk about direct to consumer headphone amp companies, Schiit, Woo Audio, and a few others charges a restocking fee of 10-15% as well.

5 Likes