Thanks bpcarb. By this you mean too much added to an otherwise neutral signal?
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Correct - adding too much gain / too many gain stages can be unfavorable for those wanting the truth. Some ears prefer the sound of “much” which isn’t “too much” to their ears, however.
Perhaps akin to letting the water sit on the leaves for too long. Cheers.
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OK, I need a breathalyzer on my computer that prohibits spending money after a certain number of beers. Maybe there are some techies here that could make such an app?
I just ordered a Freya+ and I am so far winning an eBay auction on an Asgard 2. Here’s my logic:
I also listen to speakers, and going straight out of the Element X into Class D amps is bothering me. There is glare and in orchestral music, a lack of dynamic range that I miss even from my 30 year old Rotel amp.
The balanced headphone output from the Element X is clean, pure, black background, just immaculate. But sometimes I want it to hurt my feelings a little and it just won’t. It is so damn polite no matter what names I call it.
So, Brent Jesse is sending me some NOS tubes and Schitt is sending me a brand new Freya and we’ll see what happens. I’ll run the Freya balanced out into my class D amps and if I do not like that still, I’ll risk divorce and get a new speaker amp. I’ll go SE out into an old school Class A Asgard and see if that puts some hair on the chest of this digititus I am suffering. Plus, winter is coming, and it will help warm my office.
I got really good advice from @bpcarb and @NickZ and @ProfFalkin and others. This route may not be consistent with their good advice but I might just end up with the best of both worlds: clean objectivist DAC/Amp on one side, and some old school rock n’ roll on the other? Maybe I’ll just end up with more stuff to eBay.
Either way, I’ll share my impressions with @Doug_Dame and anyone interested in it.
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Good stuff! The prospect of Freya + into Asgard 2 is quite compelling and I can appreciate and enjoy that sound – it may be just what the doctor ordered depending on your cans.
Sometimes going against the conventional results in the exceptional! Looking forward to your results and impressions. You might need to pair it with some puerh tea.
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I loved my old Rotel equipment. Still use the CD player, it’s got 20bit Burr Brown DAC, and is the bestCD player my relatively limited experience has heard.
Just knowing you’re a Rotel guy 30 years ago lets me know you are one of us lost ones. No, the basic app won’t work, and the one that will stop you is $38,574 in the App Store.
NOTE: wrote this on iPad Pro - the Apple Keyboard has a weak magnet, and I had a Verbatim Bluetooth keyboard that was doing funny things. SO I edited - touched up a bit later.
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Update for anyone interested.
Schitt Audio is out of parts for Freya+, so I have to wait until December for it.
In the meantime I just today received the Asgard 2 amp I won on eBay. Wow. What a difference it makes over the amp in the Matrix Audio DAC. This is my first “measurements don’t tell the whole story” moment.
The Element X is listed at 1180 mw into 300 ohms. The Asgard 2 at 380mw into 300 ohms. I am not technical enough to know why the Asgard can drive the #$%^& out of the ZMF VCs and the Element X cannot, but it is not subtle. This power seems to come at the expense of some airiness in the treble, maybe some spaciousness in the staging, but the overall impact of the Asgard 2 is shocking. It is the closest yet to the fun of listening to my loudspeakers, and I do not even get to 12 0’clock on the volume dial. I think this is what you all mean by “slam”?
I can’t wait now to run this (and my speakers) through the Freya+.
My desk is getting more cluttered, just like some other battle stations I’ve seen!
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That’s too bad that you have to wait until December for the Freya +. I have come across a couple B-stock listings recently on their website.
Glad the Asgard 2 is working out for you. I have a feeling I’d like the Asgard 2.
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Yeah, the only one in B stock now is a 230V, I’ll keep my eye on it and take a B stock no problem. Otherwise I can be patient. The Asgard 2 is kick ass. The RCA out in my DAC is going to a subwoofer and it is annoying to switch them around, so I have been listening straight out of my phone (2.5mm to RCA) when I want the punch. The gain is lower out of the phone but I just turn the knob a bit and it sounds great! It feels like a 70s muscle car. I really can’t believe it. I think I spent a lot of time and $ worrying about the DAC and forgot how important amplification is, and how distinct different amp designs sound. I am just surprised for many types of music, I more enjoy listening to a second hand Asgard with my phone as a source to a $3K DAC. Maybe I am a simpleton. Maybe I just invested first in the wrong end of the sound chain…
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I like that thought, never forget the importance of amplification. Glad you are enjoying the Asgard 2, keep us informed when you get the Freya +, I suspect that it will be another eye opener.
Mark Gosdin
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Damn, you got me even more curious about the Asgard 2! That’s awesome that you’ve perceptively landed on a chain that delivers. Here, it appears that muscular and warm “it just sounds good” character has prevailed over latest and greatest, higher fidelity/accuracy. If I remember correctly, you have ZMF VC cans, whose refinement and technical excellence seem to complement the Asgard 2.
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I’m having the same experience as @MokhaMark. Just received an Asgard 3 today, connected it to my Bifrost 2 and plugged in my Verite Open. Holy $#!! it sounds amazing. I prefer it over my Lyr 3 with the VO (with the caveat that I prefer listening to my Stellia on the Lyr3).
When I switched to the internal multibit DAC on the Asgard 3, it sounded very good, but was missing the magic. I’m guessing that the A3 scales unbelievably well with better DACs, and the BF2 DAC is simply at a higher level than the internal A3 DAC.
I will spend some more time comparing various DAC and amp combinations (including my Pendant) and will get back with my findings.
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FYI, Schitt has B stock Asgard 2s for $139. I am not pitching here for Schitt, believe me, but when I think of the ways I’ve pissed away $150 in life, it seems like a steal. It’s like having an older V8 Mustang in the garage for days when the Lexus just will not do. But boy does it run hot. I am glad it is winter.
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Yes, I have the VCs and LOVE them. Interesting that you have the Bifrost2. It seems to be a favorite here. I have considered it, and I know the Unison USB is supposed to be really good. But my Element X replaced a Jotunheim with DAC and the leap up was not at all subtle. I am just reluctant to go back to a USB based source after enjoying ethernet streaming. However, I am very curious to see how a Bifrost 2 would compare with the Element X into the Freya+ when I get it in December.
Maybe we can work out a trial swap? I’ll send you the Element X for a while if you loan me your BF2! I’m a non-smoker and very careful. Not sure folks do that around here or not but I’m up for it.
I look forward to your further observations.
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You had me at Shelby/Cobra. Thanks, I’ll continue to monitor B stock and will likely pull the trigger eventually. I also have an Asgard 3 and Vali 2 (Amperex/BEL 6922 as my choice tube) so am covered for this segment, but am A2 warmth/muscle curious.
I also have a Bifrost 2. I noticed an improvement (likely computer dependent) in going from Unison USB to an Audiolab 6000N streamer.
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I’d be curious what you think. I do not know how the Continuity structure in A3 differs from A2. I know on paper A3 is more powerful, but my Element is 3x more powerful on paper and it doesn’t move the VCs as well IMO.
Your comment about streaming is consistent with my limited experience. Moving from USB/MacMini (lots of noise) to ethernet into great DAC was huge. I am sure USB gets better all the time with new innovation, but in the little bit of time I have been enjoying this hobby, USB seems to be a weak link, at least out of a MAC…I know PC folks can build their own cleaner paths.
In the end, I’m having fun and enjoying music like a teenager in an altered state!
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Power quantity and power quality are not equal. And there are more questions than answers to be found when you start to look into why exactly that is. We only know what we experience, and I have experienced similar things myself as well.
Unison USB is frequently reported to succesfully overcome the biggest issues with USB audio. I can’t really confirm nor deny any validity in there from my own experience, just that the Bifrost 2 is the best sounding DAC I’ve had on my desk, and it’s connected via USB just like all my previous DACs. I would also describe the subjective impact of this overall sonic improvement as “huge”. How much of this can be attributed to Unison USB? I don’t know.
So do keep in mind that with your transition from Jotunheim to Element X, the digital input might not have that much of a relative contribution to the overall change in sound you’ve observed. The biggest difference will most likely come from the step up from a built-in Schiit DAC (which aren’t great) to a pretty much TOTL DAC. You really can’t deduct how much of that change you’re experiencing can be attributed to the switch from USB to Ethernet.
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It is a steal!!
Alex
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Hi Jsim, you are absolutely correct. My experience is limited and the changes I have made were not methodical, but rather accumulative, so I would be remiss to blame any one component for the improvement. It is especially important that with the Jotunheim with built in DAC I was using IEMs and was always annoyed with the noise floor, which I confirmed was partially related to USB out of the MacMini, where it was plugged into power, etc. When I got Audirvana, I was able to improve that in otherwise the exact same system. When I input non-USB sources into the Jotunheim, it was also improved. When I got the Element X, even with IEMs, the USB was dead silent, even out of the MacMini. It actually closely rivals the streamed signal IMO. This would all reinforce your point that the leap up may be from an integrated DAC with “dated” USB technology, to arguably an end game DAC with more advanced treatment of USB. In short, not necessarily USB in and of itself, but how it is implemented. Thanks for pointing that out, I think my earlier observation was too far a leap.
What I am now curious about is how the BF2 would sound in my system compared to the Element X, just as a DAC since this appears to be one if the most highly regarded DACs on this forum. Part of the beauty of the Element X was the elegant one component desktop solution. (See my Battle Station). For IEMs, it was. For 300 ohm ZMFs, it isn’t and now I see why so many here have multiple systems. Damnit!
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I very much enjoy both. Off memory, the A3 offered a blacker background, better low end control, perhaps better suited to classical/electronic/metal, while the V2 added nice texture, space, tone suitable for jazz/rock/acoustic/vocals. For 300 ohm ZMF Eikon and HD650 cans, both amps had adequate power. The BF2 and A3, and separately the Modi Multibit and V2, make for great stacks in my book. It’s been a while since I’ve A/B compared the A3 and V2, and that was with the V2’s stock tube. I noticed improvements in going to the Electro-Harmonix 6CG7 and then the BEL 6922. Let me re-situate some gear (the Mimby and V2 stack is currently bedside) and then compare the A3 and V2 using the BF2.
My previous computer didn’t necessarily have noise. But going from computer/USB to a dedicated streaming device with optical/coaxial was favorable – I attribute it more to the dedicated streaming device aspects rather than USB. My Modi Multibit doesn’t have Unison USB – doesn’t present any sonic issues for me.
Keep enjoying the music!
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No worries, just trying to help you better rationalize your own experiences. 
There are so many different factors that can potentially affect our listening experience to some degree, it’s very difficult to get a good grasp on the complete picture.
The USB interface on the Jotunheim’s built-in DAC is indeed a basic off-the-shelf interface that doesn’t get any of Schiit’s special treatment. I’d absolutely be interested in hearing how the Element X compares against the Bifrost 2. Not a comparison I’ve seen before, but that could be an interesting one for sure. Both are generally very well regarded in the community.
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