Schiit Jotunheim - Headphone Amplifier - Official Thread

[driftingbunnies]

I think it’s possible that the Jot 2 includes features that you will find in a $2400 amp but the issue is most people put priority in sonic ability/quality first so if it doesn’t sound as good as a $2400, I think they’ve missed the mark when they make a statement like that.

It’s definitely marketing so it’s not like people who buy it truly believe they can replace their $2400 amp with it. And if there are people who really do think that, they’re probably pretty happy because I doubt they would’ve bought a $2400 amp in the first place. There will always be those who want a good bargain and the Jot 2 might be the ticket for them.

[bpcarb]

I agree. When he makes that $2400 statement (even if marketing), people will likely take it as an express warranty and have expectations - sonics, build quality, smooth volume knob, or other.

For some, a $400 amp is an upgrade.

I generally ignore the $2400 claim and evaluate whether I got what I paid for.

[PaisleyUnderground]

@driftingbunnies

I think it’s possible that the Jot 2 includes features that you will find in a $2400 amp but the issue is most people put priority in sonic ability/quality first so if it doesn’t sound as good as a $2400, I think they’ve missed the mark when they make a statement like that.

That’s a great point. In terms of functionality, it has absolutely everything I could ask for. I wanted a fun solid state amp that I could leave on all day and also connect to my powered monitors sub, without worrying about “using up” my tubes. (I fully admit I’m a little ignorant about tubes, so that “using up” statement may be completely wrong, but I’m trying to explain my situation). My sub is single-ended, so the amp also needs to have RCA outs.

So for my particular use case, I’m comparing the Jot 2 against the Asgard 3. Of course if the J2 also sounds as good as or better than my other amps, I’m all for that. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t, maybe it gets really close, but it will take some time to figure that out. But Jason’s comments had my expectations sky high, and I wish he hadn’t made claims like that.

[PaisleyUnderground]

@bpcarb

Among the 8 different configurations across balanced and SE inputs, balanced and SE outputs, high and low gain - I sometimes find differences in the sonic presentation, e.g., relaxed vs energetic, laid back vs forward, dynamic compression, congestion, stage, transients, noise floor, tone, the amount of there there.

This is very important for everyone to understand. I’m glad that I ordered my full set of Hart cable connectors, because I can easily switch between balanced and SE, and using exactly the same cable allows me to hear the difference between the outputs.

I’m using the SE input and there is a night and day difference between SE and balanced outputs, and also a smaller difference between high and low gain. As we start posting our thoughts on this amp, I think it’s important that we describe which inputs, outputs and gain we’re using.

@ProfFalkin, other than the “tizz” (which I don’t have), the sound signature that you described for BF2 > J2 > XLR high gain > VC sounds very close to what I’m hearing for BF2 > J2 > SE high gain > VO. What you described when you switched back to the J1 sounds very close to what I’m hearing for BF2 > J2 > XLR high gain > VO. I know our chains aren’t exactly the same but close enough that I wonder if there is something wrong with your amp, outside of the noise.

[perogie]

@bpcarb

I generally ignore the $2400 claim and evaluate whether I got what I paid for.

Thats what you should do but putting the claim out there in the audiophile world is something different altogether and could very much backfire. But again, it’s a mightily specific claim so it makes me think he had a target in mind. We’ll likely never know.

[bpcarb]

Good to hear. I have Hart cables/connectors also and it makes for easy switching and comparing. With this amp in particular, you make a good point that it’s important/helpful to describe inputs/outputs/gain setting.

What you describe as what you’re getting from SE and XLR generally lines up with what I’m hearing. I would offer that XLR high gain is probably my least used setting. I might be sensitive to too much excitement in the world This is also likely consistent with how I chose an Eikon over Verite as my first ZMF purchase.

I hope things continue to progress with your Jot 2. You’re in a good position to be able to compare it to your other amps, as well as the Asgard 3 (if I recall, you are no longer in possession).

[bpcarb]

I don’t disagree, especially given the audiophile world audience where we can be [insert kind descriptor]. Yeah, I’m curious also if he had a specific target in mind. Perhaps a question for his next live stream.

[PaisleyUnderground]

It looks like we have similar tastes, because XLR high gain is a little too bright and forward for me. I’m enjoying XLR low gain with the Verite right now. Enjoying that combination a lot.

I wonder if the SE inputs have a different sound than XLR. I was waiting to see if I liked the J2 enough to keep it before ordering some XLR cables.

It’s so strange how different the Jot sounds depending on which output/gain combination you’re using. I can definitely see someone plugging their headphones in, hating this amp, and sending it back, only because they haven’t chosen the combination of output and gain that suits them. And I can see a lot of arguments where person 1 talks about how much they love it and person 2 talks about how much they hate it. It needs a lot of patience (or luck) to find that sweet spot.

I have the Asgard 3 until Christmas Eve, so I’ll definitely compare those two in the next day or two.

I’m suffering from amp comparison burnout from my Burson Soloist-Lyr 3-Pendant with Verite and Stellia comparison (which I need to write up), but I will try my best with those amps as well. My biggest problem is not having enough cables to have them all connected at the same time.

[bpcarb]

Good to hear that you’ve cracked the Jot 2 code. Modular headphone cables really help with fully enjoying/using this amp. Schiit and Hart should do a collaboration.

@PaisleyUnderground

I wonder if the SE inputs have a different sound than XLR.

I pick up a difference on the inputs, but it is less impactful than the other configuration possibilities. I use SE in most often with SE out.

Edit @PaisleyUnderground: these are the input specs which may impact sonics.
Gain (balanced input): 2 (0dB) or 8 (18dB)
Gain (SE input): 1 (0dB) or 4 (12dB)

I hear you on burnout and the challenges of having enough cables.

I’ve had somewhat of a breakthrough this morning. My preferred configuration when I want my world to be rocked by Neil Peart and Danny Carey: streamer > coaxial > BF2 > balanced > Jot 2 > XLR > low gain. This is pretty dialed in for me. Optical into the BF2 is my default as coaxial can be overly sharp. Here, switching to coaxial was more pleasing than switching to high gain, which can be a bit harsh, forward, and too much sonically.

This added energy (controlled aggression) for the Eikon is what I had hoped for when I jumped on buying the Jot 2. Up to now, I had been using the Jot 2 SE mostly as I generally prefer tubes and it was familiar.

[NickZ]

@PaisleyUnderground

It’s so strange how different the Jot sounds depending on which output/gain combination you’re using.

After doing some reading I experienced a sudden rushing of brains to the head.

The primary benefit of a balanced amp is that distortions are eliminated when the two halves are combined.

When using the SE out the halves are not combined so you are getting the ‘raw’ output of one of the two halves, including the distortion that is not present in the balanced outputs.

While the small bit of circuitry used to create the SE out may alter the sound in some way, I suspect the major difference comes from using just one of the halves.

I suppose this leaves the designer some wiggle room with regard to the the amps. They may not strive to eliminate all distortions due to the cancellation process. The more distortion the amp has, the more the difference between the balanced and SE outputs.

[ProfFalkin]

Nick, it is my understanding that if you’re talking about balanced connections and external interference introduced to the cable from amp to headphone, then no, it does not inherently cancel emi. For noise introduced into the signal from the DA conversion process itself, interference or mains hum introduced to the amp circuits, tube ringing, etc… still no.

Noise generated by the components can just become part of the signal, unfortunately. So if your tube rings, or if mains noise from the amp is getting into the signal, or if your DAC just sucks and noise is getting into the signal and passed along to the amp, then any amplification that happens to that generated signal will just get amplified as well. (Unless the designer of the amp went to elaborate lengths to design noise filtration into the amp, that is. Which is entirely possible.)

BUT… For signal transfer from DAC to amp, yes, balanced will cancel noise. (Unless the amp manufacturer cheats, ties the ground and - wires together, and only uses the + wire to pass the signal. In which case, you basically have a really expensive and crappy 3 wire RCA cable. Anyway, I digress…)

Signal:
Balanced going from DAC to amp has 3 wires (per channel). It has: +, -, and ground. The + wire has the normal signal, - has an inverted signal, and ground is ground. A clean signal on these wires looks like this (+ on top, - on bottom):

When noise from EMI/RFI is introduced to the wires, it could look like distortions in the sine wave, like the black lines (messily) show:

When the signal gets to the amplifier, the - signal is inverted and summed against the + signal. Like such:

The black peaks cancel each other out, leaving us with a sine wave that is twice the strength of the 2 signals.

Amplifier:
Going from the XLR connection on the front of the amp to your transducers, the headphone is incapable of performing the inversion of the - signal, summing of that signal, and thus… no cancellation of interference. In fact, if you were to send a sine wave and inverted sine wave down the + and - connections to your headphones, you would end up with a zero volt signal at all times, and no sound would come out at all. So, if the + and - wires of one transducer receives this:

… It is going to reproduce exactly that, red bumps and all.

What XLR connectors do allow are for are 4 dedicated wires, 2 of which go to each transducer. This means that in a truly balanced & differential topology, each + and - wire can have it’s own amplifier.

Sometimes the XLR connection is just there for convenience, and the internal topology is actually single ended.

And, of course, the TRS connection just joins the grounds at the plug:

IMO, the one of the biggest benefits of using XLR connections for headphones - besides being able to use fully differential amplification - is that the connection does not short amplification circuits as it’s being connected, very much UNLIKE 1/4" TRS jacks where the left + and right + briefly get shorted to each other as the plug is pulled or inserted, and which I assume is why Phonitor amps release the magic smoke if the output is not muted first.

I hope that helps.

(Images created at https://www.desmos.com/calculator and https://www.circuit-diagram.org/editor/)

[NickZ]

Thanks for the information and diagrams. I will study them more after writing this post.

It seems like there’s apples-to-oranges going on based on this statement from Jason at Schiit, per

@bpcarb

I believe the toobish is associated with the division of the differential output and resulting distortion. Per Jason on head-fi:

And some people will note that the single-ended outputs don’t measure as well as the balanced outputs. Yeppers, 100% right. That’s what happens when you use one phase of a balanced output and lose all the distortion cancellation from a differential topology.

This considers just the output from the amp with no dac or cabling effects.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I’ll keep studying.

[ProfFalkin]

I’m not going to claim to be an EE. If I’m wrong on the above, I’d love to be shown why.

[NickZ]

My understanding is that the first four charts you posted illustrate the process within the amp, if you substitute distortion created in the amps themselves for distortion introduced into cables.

When using the XLR outputs you are getting chart 4, and when using the SE outputs you are getting the red line from chart 2.

[ProfFalkin]

@NickZ

My understanding is that the first four charts you posted illustrate the process within the amp,

Oh, I see what you are saying. Yes, applying the same method during amplification would cancel any interference equally introduced to each channel. Once the amplification process is done and the signal goes to the XLR output, there is no further benefit. If interference is introduced to the headphone cable, you get no cancellation of that noise. It is still the weak link.

If you are taking just the + phase (for each L/R) to power the SE out, the inversion and cancellation isn’t happening there either, as stated by Jason.

I didn’t think all the steps through on the amp side, thanks for pointing it out.

[NickZ]

Whew, I’m glad we got to a consensus! Hope to hell we’re both right .

The charts you posted will be a handy reference for folks reading about this in the future.

[bpcarb]

For those that have tube amps with a preamp output.

I tried inserting my LTA MZ2 with preamp outputs in between my BF2 and Jot 2, via SE connections. And then using XLR out and low gain (SE out wasn’t as engaging) on the Jot 2. I think I prefer this over Jot 2 only and XLR out without tube preamp (which may defeat the purpose for some people looking to simplify or preserve tube life). I get increased dynamics, clarity, and detail.

Whether I prefer MZ2 standalone vs MZ2 plus Jot 2, isn’t as clear. It might depend on what sound I want. MZ2 standalone has more depth, layering, and resolution, but the MZ2 plus Jot 2 combo has another level of punch and slam and more forward presentation.

I’ve experimented inserting a tube preamp in front of other solid state headphone amps with mixed results. I’m not sold on this being preferred, but it may be worth trying and having potentially yet another option. Here, the lower gain on the Jot 2 's SE input and low gain setting may be keeping things in check and limiting excessive sonics, which is at risk if going balanced into the Jot 2 and using high gain.

I recommend not trying this until standalone performance is optimized.

[ValentineLuke]

Where do you have the volume set to? Are you using the MZ2 as volume control, or the Jotenheim?

I’m interested since I’ll have a Saga+ in a couple of days.

[bpcarb]

I have the Jot 2 turned all the way up and using the MZ2 for volume control.

I hope the Saga+ works out well in your chain.

[bpcarb]

Jot 2 preferred configuration for Senn HD6XX for rock anthem tracks:

BF2 > SE in > XLR out, high gain. Tone and vocal/instrument projection are where they should be. Open and not compressed.

For HD6XX, I prefer SE in using both SE and XLR outs [it wasn’t definitive with the Eikon].

On all my amps, my HD6XX are more sensitive than my Eikon where the former require an increased turn of volume knob to reach the same listening level, even though their specs might indicate otherwise.