Sennheiser HD 6XX vs. Hifiman Sundara SHOWDOWN REVIEW

General Headphone Discussion Comparisons
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The 6XX arguably has the lowest fidelity of the four cans in my collection (also own Edition XS, HE-400se and LCD-2C open-back). Yet it’s probably the only one of my four cans that is welded to its rack – I have no plans to sell or trade it any time soon.

There’s a reason 6XX is a time-tested and beloved headphone. It doesn’t do anything great – well, the mids are pretty remarkable – but it does enough well to please a lot of people.

Great mids, present bass, very good imaging, solid build and OK comfort are more than enough to overcome the narrow soundstage and rolled-off treble. And for some, including me, the rolled-off treble is an asset because it allows you to listen to these cans for many hours without sonic fatigue.

There’s very little in the 6XX that makes you say, “WOW!” but there’s also very little in the 6XX that makes you say, “NO!” Add to that its rare ability to reflect any and all upgrades in the source chain, and you have a winner.

The 6XX is a rare combination in the audiophile world, especially for $220 USD. Enjoy its return to your collection!

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A couple updates since this thread seems to be active again. I think I mentioned in the 660S thread that I recently got the ZMF pads for the 6X0 line and think they’re the best pads available.

As I mentioned before I got rid of the Sundara because of the weight, and superior dynamics and timbre of the Senns. The funny thing is that I’m actually selling off the 660S now; though they have better treble presentation, soundstage, and resolution than the 6XX, there’s a weird muffled-ness I started noticing to the mids that I couldn’t un-notice once I noticed it. I found myself wearing and appreciating the 6XX and its smoothness and presentation even more.

The funny thing is that searching for something with more treble to compliment the 6XX and I ended up with the 560S, and I’m loving it! Early days yet, and it clearly doesn’t have the resolution or smoothness of the 6XX (which I will never get rid of) especially on the RebelAmp, its just inferior on technicalities, but the FR is kind of amazing, really bringing out the treble sensations more like Sundara but without the problems I had with the Sundara, while preserving the Senn timbre and richness. It also has a much wider soundstage than the 6XX, and it maintains its sound quality better on lower fidelity equipment. It’s just so much fun to listen to.

I recently got the RU6 R2R dongle DAC, and it really compliments the 560S (and doesn’t really complement the 6XX, making it sound too dull to my ears). For sitting at my desk, the 6XX is still a big winner, but anywhere else I can take the RU6 and the 560S and get a great experience, and if someone just wanted to spend like $400 total that could be your endgame right there.

It’s possible that what I really need is the HD600 which is more neutral than the 6XX but has superior technicalities to the HD560S. But I don’t know, I might be done in terms of open-backs now, these headphones are great.

So yeah, I prefer the HD560S to the Sundara which costs like twice as much and seems so much better on paper.

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I enjoyed the HD560s for the reasons you explained. But I ended up selling it because the small treble peak nailed me at just the wrong spot and created listening fatigue.

The HD6XX, on the other hand, is perhaps the least offensive headphone I’ve heard. I could listen to sound from it for six hours, with no listening fatigue, regardless of the genre.

Some people called that rolled-off treble the “Sennheiser veil.” I call it audio pleasure.

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Agree 100% that the 6XX is less fatiguing and easy to listen to for long periods of time; I sometimes get fatigued by the 560S too and am happy I can switch to the 6XX and have both. (On the go sometimes I also use the filtered FDX1 or even the Portal Pros for non-fatiguing goodness.)

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6XX and 660S are down tilted cans. 560S and 600 are the opposite.

If you find yourself leaning towards neutral-bright signatures, you should probably listen to the HD800S. Cheers.

This is still on my list to try, btw.

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I demoed them in a store once and they sounded cool but there’s no universe where I’m paying that much for a headphone. Also I’m not sure I need a headphone that’s MORE bright than the hd560s. I have tried the dt770 and found its brightness kind of painful.

The soundstage was magnificent though, I have to admit, and they’re one of the few headphones in that price category that’re light enough for me.

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I would recommend, if you have the opportunity, to listen to Hi-X65. It’s easy to drive, robust and great to use on the move. Also, it’s about 60g lighter than Sundara. Unfortunately, in the US the price is bigger than Sundara, but it is still cheaper than Elex, with whom I would compare it performance wise, while having a much better QC. The only caveat I would put, if you don’t like the ‘Hifiman dip’, you won’t like the stock tuning.

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I expected someone who reviews headphones would know it better, but, oh well …

There is one track that spells it all for me - Pink Floyd, Cluster One from The Division Bell. This is only for comparison, please try it out. In about the last fourth of the track the cymbals join in, gently touching in a slow, slower than walking pace. On most systems it is barely audible. I have PassLabs chain setup as my main system with Linn LP12 (Lingo4, Akito2, VanDenHul MC ONE) or Matrix Audio Element X feeding into it, and Focal 948, Visaton La Belle, JBL L90, Paradigm … and God knows what else I sometimes connect to it on the other end. The cymbal part on this track is barely audible, almost as if it is not even there.

It is so that I use Sennheiser HD 650 throughout most of the day (as I work in front of the computer) connected to either Little Dot 3 or WHAMMY with OPA2107AP in it. The reproduce this track as any other system does.

Sennheiser is very warm headphone, that can be listened to the entire day. And I recently, just out of morbid curiosity bought me Sundara. To try it out. Boy, oh boy was I surprised, the cymbals on this track are right into face, overpowering just about anything. Is this the correct representation of that the track/music in general should sound like, or is this only an attempt to exaggerate certain elements in music that people immediately catch on to? Very much like with the cheap, entry level setups. Frankly, in case of Sundara, I do not know what to think.

And then when I read the comment like “Sennheiser veil is present, and it is not even subtle”, and “Sundara reveals it all” [sic] - what does it tell me? Either of the two; the person prefers strong highs and bass in the music they listen to, more like what many of us used to hear in the discotheque hallways during our younger years, or … not so unlikely, the person has an impaired hearing and can no longer tell what the good music, good recording is. It might even be both. Not to sound completely offensive, I do not mean to, I would like to ask you (with your permission, of course) - which one are you?

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You say that you don’t wish to sound “completely offensive”, so I take that as you do want to sound fairly offensive?

If that is your goal, then I guess you did a rather good job, at least the way that I read your post.

Please note that our aim here on the forum is to be NON offensive.

That doesn’t mean that you can’t disagree with someone (anyone) but it does mean that there are ways of discussing differences of opinions without needing to be on the verge of insulting the person you are replying to.

Again, we are open and happy to have many different opinions from our members, that is what this forum is all about, but please take a moment to think about how you put your point across.

Thank you.

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Perhaps, @sngreen isn’t a native speaker of English? You’re right that the tone is a little harsh, and he should have edited that first line. But he does ask,

And that’s a valid question. Of course he points to a specific example, and I just don’t know that track well. I may give a listen on my office setup and suggest a reply. But @sngreen, perception of music can be quite individual, we don’t have the same acoustic coupling to the world that you do, nor do we know if you are exaggerating or have some odd peak at that cymbal tone that can make it overpowering. So all I can do is listen on a known clear but neutral system (speakers) and report if it’s foo or faa or somewhere in between.

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I went back and looked at @ericrosenfield’s review again. In both your comments and Eric’s, I see references to Pink Floyd from more recent albums (at least to me), and as a big fan of early Pink Floyd, I was intrigued.

First, the elephant in the room - I really appreciated some of the selections that Eric used, items I’m very familiar with, including Miles and Simon and Garfunkel. Having seen Jethro Tull do “Thick as a Brick” live (Pittsburgh, Civic Arena), I can assure you that no headphone will reproduce that concert. The gasp as Ian Anderson tosses a spinning flute 25 feet in the air like a baton, grabs it one-handed on it’s return, and has it up to his mouth perfectly timed for the next beat.

I listened to your Cluster One and there is a lot going on on this very Roger Waterian track. Far more noticiable. Are the transitions in room acoustics as they play with what I suspect is digital reverb. How did these compare on your headphone choices? In case you’re wondering what I listened on, it was Quobuz high res over BT5 short distance to iFi Zen Blu V2 from which it goes to an SVS Micro 3000 sub and to a Schiit Lokius, into a (temporary Topping PA3s amp while the Sansui AU-919 is being recapped) and from there to EgglestonWorks Nico Evo speakers in an approximately 12 x 15 room.

As for the cymbals - pretty standard Pink Floyd staging for this type of track. It harkens back to some of the stuff on MORE. They actually are hinted prior to the end about a minute or so earlier as the drum sounds are beginning to be brought up. Then on my system, with my aging ears, they are neither forward nor veiled. Just an element in the mid-back of the staging area, slightly to the right. As typical with Pink Floyd they capture plenty of air and shimmer, even though at a low volume.

Cymbals are, I think one of the more difficult instruments to catch with nuance, especially in headphones. I think that you should give it a listen with some nice speakers, and revisit where you think the level should be. Using speakers will completely remove the variable of headphone coupling/earpads and perhaps provide you with a more realistic baseline.

Welcome to the forum. We are not Reddit, ASR, or other forums. We really strive to be a place of considered opinions, friendly and mutually beneficial discussions.

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When you get a chance, search this forum for threads on tinnitus and other hearing impairments. Sometimes an impairment actually increases a person’s sensitivity. Further, many people with some hearing loss have had their brains make adjustments that correct or partially correct the problem in unexpected ways.

There are some very astute folks on this forum who may no longer experience air. But recall that Ludwig Von Beethoven wrote the glorious 9th Symphony when almost completely deaf.

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I guess this is it. Excessive focus in the subbass and in the higher treble. :point_up:

I have been following all kinds of IEMs reviews for some time now. And noticed an excessive hype on treble extension (and air) in the past few months. The funny fact? Majority of them are young (< 25 yo).

To keep it short while adding a :hot_pepper: . The majority of these folks do not listen to AC-DC Thunderstruck or other guitar-biting tracks. Most of them consume electronic or modern pop music. That made my life easier taking their opinions with a grain of salt. These folks are likely a subset of the genuine treble-heads. :hot_pepper:

Not to mention the excessive scoop in the lower mids in many of the recent tunings. If it’s not scooped it is categorized as muddy. :joy:

Now give me my warm muddy bass because my playlists are asking for it. :muscle:

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Welcome to your headphone forum!

I own the the Little Dot Mk III and have listened to my Sennheider Drop HD6XX (HD650 clone) through it. I am hearing some of what you are hearing as it does indeed improve the sound dramatically compared to the horrid sound that I hear out of the HD6XX single ended out of any of my other amplifiers. However, it still is not a headphone that I would ever chose to listen to for enjoyment. This is where I now insert how your hearing may be damaged since you enjoy the HD650 for warmth when pretty much any headphone that presents warmth does so with so much better results. Mine happens to be the ZMF Aeolus, but which headphone it is does not matter because the main issue at hand is that we are trying to determine if your flaw is with your hearing loss or your poor judgement as to how warmth should be presented in a headphone.

As for the harshness of the HifiMan Sundara headphone treble. The original poster of the thread already described that the treble of the Sundara comes across as harsh and intolerable so that pairing the Sundara with the correct amplifier was necessary for him. He remedied the harsh treble by pairing it with the RebelAudio RebelAmp and claimed that pairing synergy of the two yielded treble that was warm and smoothed. As I own both the Sundara and the RebelAmp, I can also report that the RebelAmp presents exceedingly refined and smoothed pleasant treble with every planar dynamic headphone of my collection which can only be equaled by my much more expensive amplifiers ranging in $2000’s msrp. The original poster also equalized his Sundara. Even though you have very impressive audio gear, perhaps you are not able to equalize properly and have introduced clipping or distortion into the audio chain. We have yet to determine which error you are suffering from.

To imply that the original poster of this thread has either hearing damage or bad taste is simple ludicrous. He is highly regarded by myself and also by the majority of this forum that presents reliable and accurate audio performance and experience. Ironically, what I am reading between the lines of your post is actually what is in bad taste not the original poster’s taste in headphones. Your posts seems particularly rancid from the standpoint that is a first post from a new individual in a forum. Yes, I do aggressively stand my ground with my opinions. However, I do wait until I have placed a few choice posts before I begin making my ridiculous statements. I would think that a first poster would know better, but, oh well …

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No, to sound offensive is not my goal, never was, but I must admit the big why was never leaving. I still have mine, take it out every day and … put away after 5 minutes of listen; too bright, the voices come with metallic overtones (I would not call it air), and is too heavy. Not really fatiguing, but there is something very odd with how they deliver. Do they need to break in? I also thought they were a bit rough in the beginning, so perhaps. Or perhaps they are meant to be played loud, and do not show their full potential at low volumes, this somehow I doubt. Or maybe, just maybe I am too used to Sennheiser, and can not accept there is something else that is as good, and at a lesser price as well. No, I don’t think so. So no offense was meant, just the review is a bit bloated, and shall we say, it does not give a good image of what this product is. It is a good headphone, but not as good as the HD-650.

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Kind of remind me of Beyerdynamic DT880, meant to be comfortable but heavy, and there is not a single speaker set that I can think of to resolve to such detail. Do they represent how the music is supposed to be listened to? - No, I don’t think so. And so it went out as soon as they came in. Yes, very individual.

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The cymbals on Cluster One do not come as strong through any of the speaker sets I listened to. I do remember back in the 90’s I did hear it rather distinctly, and now it almost disappeared. I notices it when I played the latest LP reissue, it just was not there. I played HiRes files, all the same. So there could be several reasons, I thought; 1) I am getting older and this frequency is out of range, or 2) they just repacked it, and it is not what it used to be. But then there is a third reason, I used to listen to it through fairly inexpensive airbuds, and guess what, it was not one bit surprising when it came back through Sundaras again.

Here is another track for comparison; Miles Davis - All Blues (from Kind of Blue, B-side), in the right speaker there is very nice rhythmical cymbal going on, but it must not be loud. Through Sundaras, it is rather loud, and it takes away from the rest of the composition as it is played. I doubt this is what Jimmy Cobb had in mind when they were recording it. Check this track out!

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I will only say that I think we have to remember that 1) taste is subjective and 2) people literally hear differently than other people, which is called HRTF. Someone’s hearing doesn’t have to be “damaged” to hear differently than you, everyone hears differently than you.

When I said “Sennheiser veil is present, and it is not even subtle”, I think all I meant was that given my (at the time fairly limited experience) it was obvious that the Sundara had a lot more treble than the HD6XX. I do EQ the 6XX now and give it more treble and sub-bass and it sounds amazing.

But I think you’re getting hung up on “is this the correct representation of that the track/music in general should sound like”. Is the Sundara or the 6XX more “correct”? I have no idea, I’m not sure how I would even know that. There are people who try and chase the “perfect FR curve” for the “most accurate” representation of a recording, but that strikes me as a fool’s errand, especially since you’ll never reproduce the acoustics in the recording studio where the music was mastered nor do you have the same HRTF to hear “exactly” what the producers were hearing. So instead, I just look for what sounds good and pleasing to me. Lots of people prefer more treble (eg. fans of Grado or Beyerdynamic or the HD800S) and other people like lots of bass (eg. fans of the Meze 99). It’s just personal preference.

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I’m not going to address the tone of your first message, as others have already done that. I accept that you didn’t intend to offend.

What’s throwing me off is your initial comment that:

You said this after listing some very nice stereo equipment. To my ears and the ears of others, the HD 650 does not sound like other systems and doesn’t sound technically correct or accurate at all.

The 650 pales in comparison to products in the $1,000 tier, plus the elite and super-elite headphone tiers. The 650’s highs are muddy, it doesn’t generate deep bass at all, the lower mids are too loud, and it lacks detail/resolution. Frankly, the HD 650 is an entry-level audiophile product and a historical benchmark. We all know it, and most of us respect for its history or like it. But it absolutely, positively does not sound “as any other system” nor does it begin to compete with better stuff (See @hottyson’s comment too. He’s previously noted that we have similar ears and tastes.)

I’m no fan of HiFiMan for various reasons, but they certainly can produce nice comfortable and airy treble with the right setup. I’d look to swapping your DAC and/or amp before rejecting its highs versus the HD 650.

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What I meant was that I do not feel, or sometimes even forget that I have headphones on my head, but listen to a set of nice speakers somewhere in front of me. The stage would never be the same, understood, but the overall tone and how the instruments come across is there. HD-650 do sound somewhat dark, but by far not unengaging nor bloomy, just like the good set of warm sounding speakers connected to a proper setup would. And they are not tiresome either. Many headsets are.

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