Current tube combo that I am not sure can be bested, with a sound that is so insanely holographic, detailed, impactful, and is so freaking lifelike it is scary.
Don’t get me wrong, as an avid tube roller, I am going to have to see if I can get the sound even better, so I will be rolling my other power tubes soon, to see how they pair with the Footscray Triple Mica 57’, as that is for sure the input tube I am staying with.
Power tubes on deck - Mullard Blackburn EL84 Foil Disk Getter (very first version RX1), Amperex Holland EL84 D Getters, and Philips Holland 7189 D Getters.
I am also going to see how my G.E.C. U709 Black Plate Square Getter (rectifier) works with these combos, as well.
Wes, I gotta ask this as I am slowly building out my own tube collection, how are you able to differentiate all these tube rolls?
How more holographic can they be, or is there other factors in play?
I have amassed a small humble collection by comparison, and struggle to differentiate anything other than the power tube and they are subtle.
I have been tube rolling for years, and over time have trained my ears to hear the subtle differences. I also, have a highly resolving system, which helps tremendously, as well. It just takes time, and good gear to learn the differences and that is part of the fun. As we get further down the rabbit hole the subtle differences become much bigger, by the way. Also, not all tubes sound that much diffrent from each other, so I suggest getting ones known to have completely different sound sigs, to make it easier to hear differences and hone in your preferred sound from there.
Thanks, I may have to accept the fact that my hearing is not good. I have been able to notice the differences between my amps and DACs way more than a tube roll.
I admit I have been suckered into the must buy “holy grail” hype and it is why I ask, what makes them special and more different than the other “holy grail’ comparable tubes.
My set up is not too shabby, would think it is resolving enough to pick up on these big changes.
Wes what is your “Reference “ level chain set-up? I have gotten particularly good results w/ my Pendant Over the years. Your experience in tube rolling has been the last little missing piece for me, thank you much for sharing your fairly detailed experiences . I am curious to know what source, dac etc you have found the most synergy with if you don’t mind sharing.
EDIT; i read your profile, never mind, you have it laid out clearly.
I feel much the same. Got a bunch of recommended EL-84 and equivalents for my Tuba and really only a couple NOS ones were clearly different. With that at least there was only one type of tube to roll but there are 3 with the Pendant. Between my poor listening memory and the time it takes to turn off, cool down, install, warm up it’s very difficult. A 1959 Amperex D getter EL-84 pair has been my favorite with both amps and I have the Brimar one coming for the 12AT7 along with the EZ81 Wes recommended, so I’ll at least be part of the way to his favorite combo. I think I’ll spend a week with that, go back to the stock JJs, and get a better handle on the differences.
Thanks for the support/understanding, good luck on the new combo!
What is fascinating is I can for sure tell the difference amongst different type of tube amps, such as OTL vs. SET, and comparing those are not even a flight of fancy as they present differently. Hell take two price comparable SET amps such as the Pendant and Starlett, and there is a huge difference. So that is another factor to consider, yes the tube array is different in each and I’ve only heard the Starlett. There are options galore, and we are lucky to have a number of people with far more experience than I have able to weigh in.
What am I missing? The tube amps I have tried all offer that 3D, holographic sound, how does one determine if it’s the tube, the amp design, or both?
Some data points to reference would be beneficial for not only me, I am sure the rest of the community would appreciate it too.
Wes is such a bad influence on all of us, he got us all to buy the same tube/s, for what? To obtain what I hope will be the best sound I’ve come across. Seriously though, I really am excited to try the tubes he’s recommended.
Just to elaborate a bit on getting better at picking up differences between tubes, I like to spend days if not weeks with a new tube to get a true feel for it’s sound sig, only then do I start to compare it with tubes I am very familiar with. It really does take time to get a true feel for a tube, as there are so many factors at play. Depending on my mood, time of day, and many other factors, the sound can vary a bit, and that’s why it takes time for me to get a true feel for the sound of a tube or any new component really. Again, I would like to mention, that there are many tubes in the same family that will sound quite similar. So with that said, when I begin a tube rolling journey with a new amp, I like to start with either my brightest or warmest tube depending on what I have heard about the amp, and go from there. As I am getting a feel for the sound, I will start to notice something is either missing or there is to much of something, and I then adjust from there working my way toward my idea of “neutral”. It is all about engagement and emotion, and I keep rolling until I get to that special place called “There”.
@bpcarb Not even close really or perhaps maybe 80%. The stock tubes sound really good at first, but once I got a feel for them I just was not getting engaged and felt like something was missing. So, I rolled in some of my NOS tubes and the difference was obvious. The stock tubes are punchy, and a bit V shaped, and lack the emotional engagement factor for me, as they just don’t have the delicate inner detail, expansive stage and lifelike tonality I get with my better NOS tubes.
@Roark When it comes to determining what is contributing to the holographic sound, of course the amp has it’s own sound, and then you can tweak it with tubes. For instance, some tubes throw vocals way up front and move instruments further away or visa versa and there are varying degrees of this depending on the tube used, which contributes to the perceived soundstage. So, there are tubes that are mid focused, there are V shaped tubes, and there a well balanced tubes and this will have an effect on how holographic the stage is. Of course, changing between amps is going to be way more obvious, than rolling tubes in just one amp.
Well, yesterday I changed up my tube combo, to see if I could squeeze a bit more performance out of the amp using the Footscray Triple Mica 57’ CV4033, and I found an even more amazing pairing. The Valvo EL84 Hamburg 54’ and Mullard EZ81 Blackburn 55’ were sounding spectacular don’t get me wrong, however I rolled in the G.E.C. U709 Black Plate Square Getter (rectifier), and my pair of Amperex Holland 7189 D Getters 58’ (power), and it’s pure insanity! Folks, I know the G.E.C. U709 is ridiculously priced and hard to find, so the Mullard is a close second and I would be cool with just that, but I highly recommend pairing the Footscray Triple Mica 57’ CV4033 with either some Amperex Holland EL84 or 7189 D Getters. The holographic stage, powerful dynamics, transparency and lifelike tonality with this pairing is nothing short of spectacular.
Brimar CV4033 triple mica Footscray 57’
Amperex 7189 D Getters Sittard 58’
G.E.C. U709 Black Plate Square Getter Hammersmith 56’
With these tubes I just can’t get enough, and the headphones literally seem to just disappear and I am transported with the musicians to our own private space called “There”.
Has anyone taken to Justin or Zach about changing the gain on the Pendant? I already have the 12Au7 (lowest gain) tube on the input, but with my VC and a DAC that is putting out the standard 2.5-3v I can’t get past 9:00 on the volume knob. I don’t want to lower the gain digitally since that also lower the resolution.
Thanks
This is a small annoyance I have on both my Pendant and my Nautilus (which has the bigger gain issue because I use the 5V balanced outputs from my Yggy). Like you, I’m using a 12au7 on both. I love both amps, and the gain issue doesn’t prevent me from enjoying them, so it hasn’t been important enough to email Justin yet to see if he has any suggestions. I’ll share a couple of things that came up when I talked about this elsewhere, in case it helps.
If you use Roon, turn on volume leveling. I don’t think this impacts SQ, but others can correct me if I’m wrong. This helped a lot, and I really only have gain issues when I’m using using Foobar on my PC.
You can buy a couple of attenuators to reduce the strength of the signal coming out of your DAC. Some people have told me not to add something else to the chain, others have said that studios do this all the time, so don’t worry about it. They’re not very expensive, so I might buy a couple, just to see if I can sense any reduction in the resolution.
To be honest, I was just being lazy, so I will email Justin right now and will get back to you on his response.
I for one, have no issues with the gain from high Z with 12AT7 and my VC, and listen between 9 and 12. The Pendant has a really nice stepped attenuator, so no worries with channel imbalance at low volumes anyways.
I’m afraid that adding a pre-amp would be worse than digitally cutting the volume.
Anyway, if you have the stepped attenuator, you have the newer model and I believe they addressed the excess gain on the new one.
I did ask about getting the attenuator, but Justin said it wouldn’t fit.
I just talked to Justin. Unfortunately he had to run to a meeting, so I wasn’t able to discuss a Pendant-specific solution, but this is what he recommended for the Nautilus (in no particular order):
Try a different power tube. I’m using 6550’s in the Nautilus, and he said that switching to a EL34, 6CA7 or 6L6GC would reduce the power. Unfortunately I don’t know of any lower powered equivalents to the Pendant’s 6BQ5/EL84 so I don’t think this is an option for you, but worth asking Justin.
Try in-line attenuators, which would go between the DAC and the cable to the amp. He said that because they’re passive, there shouldn’t be any sound degradation. He said that transformer-based attenuators would be better quality than resistor-based, but are also much more expensive for what he described as a 2% increase in quality, so he recommended that if I want to try it out, I should start with a couple of resistor-based attenuators by a well-known brand. I’ll probably buy some Shure XLR attenuators to try out, but if I do the same thing for the Pendant, I’ll probably get something like this. Justin didn’t talk about pre-amps, but I’m assuming that as long as the pre-amp is passive, it should work very similarly to the fixed attenuator.
Reduce the volume in Roon. He said that since I already have Roon, I should see if I notice any difference in SQ if I control the volume via Roon. If I don’t notice any degradation, then I’ve saved some money.
Justin loves to chat, so it’s probably worthwhile you sending him an email asking him to call you.
Also, not all tubes sound that much diffrent from each other, so I suggest getting ones known to have completely different sound sigs, to make it easier to hear differences and hone in your preferred sound from there.
. I am curious to know what source, dac etc you have found the most synergy with if you don’t mind sharing.
