Are vintage headphones better?

General Headphone Discussion
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The thread was mostly to be able to respond to the video and to share our experiences with vintage headphones being better or worse than current offerings.

I can definitely agree and see this being true to many people. HD800/(s) is probably Sennheiser’s second most popular flagship series (behind the 580/600650) and has quite a cult following as well. People will go to great lengths to correct some of the flaws in order to keep what HD800 does best, soundstage. While HD800/(s) has become the quintessential recommendation for gamers due to that soundstage, I can’t say I would wholeheartedly recommend it to audiophiles without knowing their preference. The ability to portray a large soundstage is great but at the expense of what is actually you are listening to. To have an intimate jazz ensemble become a jazz ensemble in a medium/large sized room removes me from being able to experience the intimacy of the ensemble. The emphasized upper treble and dipped lower treble can cause timbre to suffer and depending on your preference, the bass might be lacking.

HD800s stomping all over Made in Ireland 600 is very possible. I haven’t heard the HD800s but I’ve heard two different versions of the HD800 and the HD800 definitely has more of the wow factor. To me, the HD600 is probably the worst of the HD580/6x0 group. Made in Ireland also doesn’t really mean much considering all the different variations that were made in Ireland. So while I totally understand your sentiment, I would say HD600 is probably a better all arounder than the HD800s.

I think there is some experience here that I won’t touch but for many audiophiles, sound is the number one priority. Many are very crafty and can mod and improve terrible designs like the HE-6. Hifiman has always had bad build quality and that is one of the points that DMS made. Modern headphones are improving on build quality especially if you’re using something like the HE-6 to compare. However, I’d say that there are well built vintage/older headphones that are even better than Hifiman’s offerings today but yes, I agree, buying a HE-6 means you should be willing to accept that it’ll self destruct at some point in the future.

The LCD-2pf I recently purchase is definitely a testament to how heavy LCD headphones can get. If it was my only headphone, I wouldn’t consider keeping it but since I use headphones sparingly and I currently view it as a “fun” headphone, it has a spot in my stable for the time being. Comfort is another thing that DMS touched on which I can agree with. Meze or DCA or even Hifiman are fairly comfortable. However, you still have uncomfortable new headphones like Abyss Diana, TC, RAD-0, Hedd, etc etc. So while some headphone manufacturers have figured out comfort, unfortunately for some audiophiles, those manufacturers don’t have the sound quality people are looking for.

I do want to bring up that there are other vintage/discontinued/old headphones that are still worth looking into outside of those three that were mentioned in DMS’s video. I personally like the Sony CD900st that has been in production since the early 90s for asian music and vocals. I know some people really enjoy the Audio technica AD2000 for its unique mids. I’ve also been told the HD540 600ohm Gold is extremely good for string instruments. I haven’t tried the Sony R10 but those go for quite a bit. AKG K1000 is quite unique if you can find a good condition one. And then there’s the Stax SR-Omega that some view to be the best Stax ever released.

Whether you want to buy any of them in the future is totally your choice. It’s similar to my parents never wanting to buy a used car. Newer is always better right? :sweat_smile:

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Definitely a high point for HD650’s/HD6XX. They are light and wen the pads break-in a little they become much more comfortable.

Vintage headphones we’re all fairly light weight.

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Agreed.

Magic 8 ball answers the question of this thread with: “maybe”

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I’ve been holding my tongue so long here that I had to get a clothespin so I could move my hand. “Vintage Headphones”? Y’all mean the OLD headphones that we used to buy in the '60s and 70’s? Most were absolute crap. Radio Shack. I wrote about them before so I won’t repeat, just point:

Finally about 1973 or so I got some Ortho something or other (proto - planars) that I still have, Audio Technica ATH-1. Talked about in this thread that ought to be revived:

The “Good” headphones of the day were frickin’ uncomfortable. Koss Pro 4AA, for example, or even worse the heavy and hurty Koss ESP-6, which sounded gorgeous. The first estats I ever heard that put the holy in holy crap.
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My current Hive Nectar are better in absolutely every way.

I still have the Audio Technicas, and they don’t get much eartime. Too bassy. Maybe some pad rolling would help, but can’t find anything that’s right for them. Yes, I still have my Sennheiser HD-580s which were a heck of a lot better than the headphones that came with a Sony Walkman. Now that’s REAL vintage.
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@pennstac’s tongue has been unleashed. It’s quite a sight. I concur. The average vintage headphone set was a piece of trash.

Those Koss bring back memories of my grade school hearing checks. They kept the sets around for years, the pads were old, hard, and crusty, and hundreds of small children wore them. I remember them flopping around loosely on my head, so who knows if the test results were valid.

They also made me pee in a cup on the same health exam day. I hope all the hearing tests preceded the pee tests.

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Spot on. It wasn’t until the Sennheisers of the 90’s had headphones really progressed forward. Many may likely agree the HD580 then HD600/650 dawned a new era.

Headphones of today are so good its difficult to listen to traditional hifi in comparison. Least this is the case for me, and I have a high dollar “near spare no expense” hifi.

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SO very true. I still have a pair of 1971 Koss Pro4AA, they are freaking heavy, uncomfortable, lackluster on bass and treble even when driven by a high powered headphone amp. But back then they were " in".

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Just want to chime in here. I see a lot of people in here saying Aeolus and Elex is definitive upgrades to the 650.

Here’s my desk tonight.

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(SW51+, Bottlehead Crack + Speedball, Feliks Echo, Jotunheim 2. ZMF Aeolus with perforated suede pads or perf univ pads, Focal Elex and Black Silk 650. Schiit Bifrost 2 is my DAC)

I feel like I have all the gear here to properly test these headphones. These are known and valued synergies here.

I ended up here like how @driftingbunnies mentions, slow steps in upgrading. This path was taken in attempts to make my favorite headphone at the time the ZMF Aeolus scale, but what I ended up with surprised me.

I had a 6XX in the beginning, got an Aeolus and immediately put my 6XX in a box and never took it out. I really did not like the 6XX, overly forward mids bad bass and shouty. However, once I upgraded from an Asgard 3 to a Bifrost 2 with SW51+ and Bottlehead I took the 6XX back out and was pretty shocked with what I heard. And that sort of lead me down this path.

Everything said is in comparison to the 650.

The old black silk 650 is the better headphone out of these three. Off the SW51+ it’s the fastest, clearest, highest resolution, best microdynamics and best timbre out of the group, dare I say it even slams / kicks more than the group. Additionally, it has this massive stage depth to it that first blew my mind when I heard it. Off the Bottlehead Crack it’s incredibly natural sounding and also engaging. The macro and microdynamics and mids clarity make it incredibly engaging while the perfect timbre makes it so I can’t be fatigued listening to it.

Aeolus, it’s a great headphone, don’t get me wrong, but it’s very closed in sounding, it’s overly smooth and completely lacks the nuanced micro and macrodynamics the 650 displays, making drumming or attack on guitar sound blunted and boring. There are also some unevenness somewhere in the mids and upper mids that don’t immediately jump out, but when compared to the 650 it’s noticeable. The lows bleed into the mids making them a bit crowded and muddy sounding. And finally resolution across the FR is a step back or two from the 650.

Elex, the whole presentation has a very metallic timbre to it. It’s extremely noticeable when you compare it to the 650. While it does do large dynamics better than the 650 it completely lacks the nuanced microdynamics that I find so alluring in the 650. Even when I try to speed up the driver by using something like the Jot2, it’s just not as fast as the 650 off the SW51+. There’s also something off about the way it projects stage in recordings, Focal is known to have small staging and this is very small but it’s also the combination of small stage depth and sometimes a 2 blob effect that sounds off putting. The mids are also veiled when comparing to the 650. And finally, while it has a touch more resolution in the bass the rest of the FR doesn’t have the detail like the 650 has.

In the end the 650 stays on my desk. It’s almost an inconvenient truth, but it’s also an easy call to make really.

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Nobody has said any of those are definitive upgrades, but rather in their opinions based on their experiences they are upgrades. There’s nothing definitive about subjective experiences :slight_smile:

Thanks for sharing your experience, though - it’s what makes this place great!

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Good Answer Family Feud GIF - Good Answer Family Feud Steve Harvey GIFs

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My first pair of headphones were Koss Pro/4AA. I had to replace the pads, but I still have them. However, I rarely use them, and when I do, it’s only to remind me how much more comfortable my contemporary headphones are.

However, they’re not the worst thing I’ve ever used. That has to be the Dynalec H-200/U.

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Vintage headphones in my experience are very worth it if you find a deal…

Pro tip: Pads make a substantial difference in overall performance. If you snag one with flat or worn pads, just stick some felt on the posterior side of the inner oval. This will help prop the pad back into position. There is no going back trust me lol

I daily my HD580 (flat plate/early production) and prefer it to past HD650, HD600, HD580 (v3/late production).

To me it sounds more linear/ neutral and less dull than my old hd650/HD580 v3. Timbre is also top notch. Axel named it “precision” for a reason.

I also have owned a few HD540/Gold, HD560 Ovation I/II, and many HD250 linear 1…

Something about those old Sennheiser headphones is just so euphonic. I’ve gotten a lot of enjoyment out of those.

Not perfect by any means, but what headphone is?

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My 580 Impressions:

So I’ve had HD580 for a while now and with my susvara and energizer both out on loan they are what’s been getting the most ear time recently (on P6P → AIC-10). Ive got to say, they really do an excellent job at giving a complete sound. Like shockingly so. While obviously I know what I am missing compared to higher tier stuff it shocking just how little of a hint there is that more even exists while using 580s.

Onto the sound as a whole. TBH, to my ear, these sound a lot like midfi susvara. I know this sounds crazy (@krack has been telling me it is for weeks) but stick with me for a second. The tonality is obviously fairly close to sus but that’s not what does it for me. Instead it’s the presentation that truly makes me feel that way. While smaller in stage, obviously far less detailed with less distinct images, as a whole. I feel like the can places images within space in the same manor susvara does. As in, its just incredibly, incredibly organic and coherent. Now I am certain that my chain is pulling a lot of weight here, but just even that it gets to the point I’m hearing it at is incredible IMO. Combine this coherency with the fact that 580 somehow doesn’t even really hint at anything being missing and I do see the where the love comes from.

What I don’t understand however are the infinite scaling memes. Yes, these do fully scale up to my AIC-10, but lets go back to what I said earlier. They sound like mid-fi susvara. The people putting these things on deep 5 figure chains just don’t make sense to me. You’re running wavelight → old EC/DNA/cavalli/etc? Yah, I can totally see 580 being a good stopping point as Sus needs a bit of help and those amps just wont run it. But you are running if on WD XLR Sig → Studio T with maxxed out tubes (a chain I know of a few people using for 580 as a main can)? Well then we just go back to how I started this comment. What makes 580 so excellent is also what makes sus so excellent, but on a much higher level. If you are running a chain like above, I have no idea why you wouldn’t just build a sus chain tbh. Like you like HD800S/HD600/etc? Sure, I get it. Its tough to find other higher tier options that feel like a direct step up, but 580 has an obvious one that isn’t even hard to track down.

IDK, overall I’m left with pretty mixed feelings. On one hand 580 will be entering my recommendation pool <$500 and TBH ill probably keep a set on hand for the foreseeable future. On the other, the SBAF/discord meme chains make even less sense to me now. Maybe this is just because I haven’t heard how excellent vintage EC/DNA is and those not being able to run sus limits options, but idk. I guess that’s an issue to tackle another day (when I can finaly have exposed tubes and massive amps in my main chain)

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As a person who has owned both Sus and HD580, this is why I went HD580 instead of keeping Sus.

  • Sus is expensive. Yes, it is silly that people are pairing crazy source components with HD580 and talk about scaling but moving to a Sus doesn’t save you money on those source components. If HD580 can get me even just 85% of the way there but saves me $3-6k, that’s still a lot of money I can use for something else.

  • Timbre. Sennbros are all about the timbre. The benefit that HD580 has is being a dynamic vs planar. HD580 can benefit greatly from amazing tubes that might not have the grunt that Sus requires. There’s a fine balance between power and quality of power. Some people love the midrange of 300B tubes but then it might not be quite enough for Sus depending on the amp. Obviously there are tube amps that can power Sus but let’s face it, planars love current and SS does a better job providing that.

  • Once you get to Sus pricing, speaker amps, and large DACs, the question starts to become why don’t you just use speakers? Not everyone can use speakers which is why Sus still has a place in the audiophile community but $6k speakers will definitely beat or at least equal Sus when it technicalities.

  • Lastly, build quality and reliability. I’ve known plenty of people able to pick up these 30 yr old headphones in pretty good condition. Some are trash but some are very salvageable. The Sus is made of metal but there are plenty of people who have had to RMA (me included) multiple times due to build quality or driver issues. It’s already been proven that HD580 can survive. I’m not going to hold my breath on Sus.

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We may have disagreed several times in this thread, but you make a lot of valid points here regarding the 580 vs Susvara. Honestly, I think it’s cool you performed the head-to-head comparison and ended up keeping the “cheaper” headphone; that proves to me that you didn’t let the extra cost and prettiness of the Sus effect your judgement. Good on you! I respect your choice, just as I respect @Eskamobob1’s.

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I mean, this gets back to the point I made. I totally get picking 580 if trying to stay “relatively” budget. Maybe not the way I would go at most budgets, but I do get it. Its when stepping into the 5 figure range that I just flat out don’t.

This I just flat out disagree with and, imo, shows a bit of a lack of experience with susvara (no offence meant by that, experience is expensive as fuck to gain so no shame in not having it). I agree that tubes generaly have better timbre than SS but they are tons and tons of fantastic tube options for sus even ~ 2500 USD. A great example here is Forge/Mogwai SE. That amp fully powers sus with no issues and Sus just has flat out better timbre than HD580 when fully run IMO. This is not even to mention the slew of higher end options that will run sus to speeds and precision levels completely surpassing lower tier solid state crazy powerful amps (be it AHB2, ferrum, or even 13R). Outside of my few amps that just flat out wont run Sus (mostly portable stuff for my own personal collection) I have not encountered an amp that gave HD580 better timbre than Sus.

Now, just as your comment on planers liking solid state shows a lack of experience, the statement I just made may well simply be showing my lack of experience with DHTs and other crazier vintage things. Id love to gain more experience in this area, but I’m highly skeptical anything that properly powers sus gives it worse timbre than 580. I could see “better timbre if under ‘x’ budget” but not just outright.

This is just a use case thing tbh. Even as someone with dumb HP gear I still req people just get speakers if they fit their use case. It just so happens they dont fit mine so i dont have any. IMO it needs to be assumed speakers dont fit the use case to justify headphones above even the very entry level.

yah, 0 excuses here. The sus build quality is some real horseshit for a $400 can, much the less a $6,000 one.

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I’m not going to pretend that I have experience in the expensive tube amp range because I don’t. However, I do know that high end tube options are not on the radar of a majority of headphone uses out there. Yes, you can use Forge/Mogwai SE. Sus is basically immune to noise so A&S amps would go well with it. You can also use it on a 845 tube amp as well. You can use it on a PP tube amp that puts out 40w or more. Of course you can do that. However, you’re also sacrificing a ton of stuff going that direction. All of those tube amps that you would buy have one function and that is to power Sus because they will not play well with a majority of the rest of your headphones. They’re really meant for speakers.

Based on your experience though, you’ve been building your system to fit headphones like Sus or whatever headphones you are rocking now. Just like some people spend 5 figures just to run a HD800 system to fix the tonality of HD800. From my experience, amps like AHB2, 13r, or CFA3 aren’t suitable amps for HD580 but do well with Sus. Since you have the financial ability and experience, go grab a stellaris and let us know how they compare. I honestly would love to hear experience from someone who isn’t drinking the senn koolaid to tell us how it compares.

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I mean, we aren’t really talking about the majority of headphone users here though. TBH I find stuff like A&S just as obscure as EC/DNA/etc. Plus if we are talking the massive money range where studio T and stuff like that sits I think its extra reasonable for someone to have heard of stuff like Envy, traformatic, Viva, etc.

I really just dont think you are though. Forge hissed with HD800S and that was the only HP I’ve ever had a usability issue with on it. Plus the noise flood dropped significantly once I cleaned up the stock tube pins and I’m running the 32/300 model which should theoretically be the louder once as is. IMO you give up basically nothing going with that amp other than maybe raw resolution (which is still no slouch even given the price).

I mean, forge is still my favorite overall amp below AIC-10 because it works amazingly with basically every headphone ive thrown on it (D8kp is the only exception) be it the sensitive as hell utopia, demanding sus, or even the venerable HD580. The noise floor is even lower with Liquid Crimson too.

Plus this argument fold 2x when talking about TOTL systems. TOTL systems have their synergy built for specific cans regardless of going with 580/sus/any other option. very few super high end systems are good generalists that work at the same tier with every can in my experience. Second, there is even less given up in terms of usability as you go higher up. AIC-10 is deal silent with even LCD-R, much the less 580/utopia/hd800. The same gets reported with primavera/wa33/a number of other TOTL sus tube options. Hell, the only totl sus tube amp I can think of that has reported issues with noise floor is envy. And this is all ignoring the fact that there are numerous DHT options in this range (that arent PP) that will run sus anyways

And? Setups for sus often heavily focus on timbre and those benefits get applied to all cans (be it sus, hd800s, hd580, or even stax). Obviously synergy plays a role here, but I’ve still yet to hear any setup that gave HD580 better timbre than sus just outright. And the reason I don’t suspect I ever will is that I just genuinely don’t think 580 has the resolution needed for true, real to life, texture tbh. Drums and horns are the easiest to demonstrate this with. While HD580 has the bite sus can often be lacking for horns, it truly fails whenever there is quick vibrato or intentional honking (even on setups that allow utopia to demonstrate these well). For drums, the splash of a ryde cymbal ends up slightly smoothed and is missing some of the aggression that exists in real life, IMO, because the 580 simply cause resolve the information at hand. I also dont find ti particularly good with piano due to some of my issues with its sustain but that one may be fixed with different amps.

  1. None of those are tubes (which weve already kind agreed have better timbre in general)
  2. I don’t think any of those amps are particularly great all around, much the less when speaking on timbre specifically.

I’d love to but I cant have exposed tubes at work or facilities looses their shit. Hell, its been months since I used my forge even despite it being probably my favorite all around amp simply cause i dont have time to listen at home and cant bring it to work :confused:

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I use the sus with the wa33 and find it very enjoyable. I also like other headphones with it. I really like the Stellia, hd580, hd650 and hd800S off this as well. I ended up selling the hd800S because I thought the sus did it all better, outside sound stage. I want to hear a Utopia off this as well, maybe eventually!

When I had the dna stratus here on loan for a little over a month, I thought the hd580, hd650 and hd800S was a great pairing. I can totally see this as an end game for some. I hear the Utopia pairs nicely as well. But I wanted to know how the sus played with the wa33 before I got into the long wait for a dna. Didn’t want to try it later on and have to change directions with my chain. I’m glad I tried it because to me it’s awesome. Great timbre. Low rumbling bass, still hits hard when called upon. Awesome detail and clarity. Really impressive imo. Beats the hd800S off the stratus. Again, only losing in stage.

Now, if someone likes the dna and senn pairing more, that’s OK, again I get it! I love sennheisers too. If I could swing it, I’d have a stellaris setup for my senns. And the hd800 would be back. But because I’m not rolling in cash, the senns on the wa33 will do, and they do really well imo.

Just my two cents. Totally get the dna and speaker options too. Speakers just don’t work for me atm, maybe down the road I’ll get some near fields for that itch. But I could run those off this chain too :grin:

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I’m willing to concede to A&S being obscure as EC/DNA/etc if you can find me more than a handful of people in these circles have heard envy, traformatic, and Viva that didn’t go to the Munich high end show.

Maybe Forge is the headphone amp to grab then if it’s just a mere $2500 and can fit with everything. I do know my fair share of Mogwai owners and many of them have moved on due to noise or looking for something a bit more refined. They all sold it saying that it’s a great amp though which I believe to be the case.

I only brought up those amps because you did. I believe the point you were making was high end tubes can do better than low end SS amps that supposedly do well with Sus. I wasn’t really talking specifically on timbre for these amps but just an overall synergy. Like you said, synergy plays a big role especially when you move up.

To conclude, I think we actually agree on most of these points. The whole point which I think you did mention in your first post is that HD580 does scale really well. The fact that it continues to do better on more expensive gear is what makes it interesting. Not every headphone under $500 can do that. Heck, even some more “modern” headphones can’t do that. Just as you don’t understand why someone would spend 5 figures on HD580, I don’t understand why someone would bring $15k+ worth of gear to work :stuck_out_tongue: (just teasing of course)

This thread isn’t really a HD580 appreciation thread. It was to point out that to make the claim that vintage headphones aren’t better than modern headphones because 1) you need to scale it, 2) modern headphones measure better, and 3) build quality and comfort wasn’t based on enough concerted effort imo.

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