That’s the one thing I’ll fully agree with regarding some vintage gear, and especially older household appliances - they really did seem to be better made back in the day.
Nobody is saying one experience is the one true experience. However, the problem with your notion - buying $300 headphones and then $4000 worth of electronics to run them - is that it’s not practical in most people’s minds. I went through the same experiment with the HD 650, and while it certainly sounded better on tubes and higher end gear, it didn’t transform the headphone into something even in the kilobuck range; not to my ears. The Focal Clear is better, as is the Audeze LCD-X and even the Focal Elex, all while being run on mid-fi gear (less than $1000 for the amp and DAC); my opinion, of course - I don’t begrudge anyone who thinks differently. The headphone will always yield the greatest change in sound quality (unless something is broken in the electronics change), so that’s the path that most people follow. Once you achieve Summit-Fi, sure, start experimenting with kilobuck gear, but it’s not practical until then. It’s why I ultimately sold my 650. To each their own.
BTW, I too prefer speakers over headphones, but it doesn’t make sense for me right now; one day, I’ll once again have a killer 2-channel system and Home Theater.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem. It’s just whether or not you accept it or are down that path in the journey. The reason why it is possible to some people and not most people is because we took similar journeys.
Just picture this. You start out HD650 with schiit stack (magni/modi). You later upgrade to aeolus and find that people are suggesting tube amplifiers. You upgrade to a feliks echo or maybe even elise. Later you upgrade to a bifrost 2. A year or so down the line you go to a yggdrasil/euforia combo in addition to other ZMF/Focal dynamics. From there you explore speakers and buy an integrated tube amp like elekit TU-8900 or possibly a Hegel H95 with some bookshelves. You jump into planars and find yourself looking for a HE-6 since you already have a speaker amp to use to try them. You continue down this path until you get to Susvara with a beefy speaker amp. Next thing you know, your life changes and you can use your speakers more freely and the bookshelves paired with a beefy amp actually does certain things better than a Susvara or any other high end headphone. You sell Susvara and spend more on new bookshelves but still have a need for headphones so you pull out your HD650. They surprise you because of how close they are to your speakers and can meet 99% of your headphone needs.
From that of view, the person did not go from HD580/650 into $4k electronics. It was built up over time. That is more or less my journey and quite a few others. I think the problem you brought up is the assumption that a person who buys $300 headphones needs to use $4k electronics. They certainly don’t need to but if you happen to have them, it certainly doesn’t hurt.
The thing that surprised me the most is honestly how amplification and source changed my view on speakers and headphones. I had some Dynaudio Focus 110’s for the longest time. I had them paired with a Resonessence Concero + NAD C355bee for almost a decade. As I upgraded my headphones and ended up with a Susvara, I had Rockna Wavedream and Luxman L550axii powering both the Susvara and Dynaudios. I enjoyed the Dynaudios much more when using the same front end. However, if I were to compare them using my old Concero+NAD combo, the Dynaudios were “fine” or “good”. Because of that experience, I looked at “vintage” electronics that have stood the test of time and can meet most of my headphone needs. I now have HD580 and LCD2pf w/ Vegan pads.
Nobody else is going to experience what I experienced but I don’t expect them to either. My main point was that vintage gear can be interesting and the reasons that DMS points out in his video that modern gear is better needs to be expound upon.
@robson …Yes. Easy to agree with your assessment. My HD650’s were also from the Ireland factory and still love them.
The Aeolus after it’s 200hr break-in is a superior headphone in every regard, though in some categories the comparison is close and other categories miles better. The Aeolus is a natural upgrade to the HD6XX.
@driftingbunnies Amplification is important and pairing power requirements is important as you suggested. It’s easy to whole heartedly agree the statement - HD6XX or HD580 are end game headphones for many.
I was happy as a lark with my HD650’s for years. Frankly I believe the Sennheisers are still king of the mountain for price/performance. My own journey was HD650, then upgrade the electronics and finally the headphones. As I upgraded the electronics, the Sennheisers produced more and more until a threshold was plateaued and higher end headphones were needed. It took me years to get the right high end gear, but I enjoyed the journey. Each serious upgrade allowed me to rediscover old favorite recordings with new perspective.
With the exception of 2 mega-buck friends, I’ve recommended any HD6XX headphone in that line-up with a decent amp & DAC. I paired a close relative with a HD650 and PS Audio Gain Cell DAC w/internal headphone amp. Terrific ESS Sabre DAC and decent headphone amp. Fully balanced inputs and remote volume. Easy to upgrade to higher end amplification while keeping the DAC.
These sell for $900ish used and on sale now for $1300 new. One box / one headphone solution for ~$1100 with the used Gain Cell. What a nice entry into head-if.
As I’m reading the discussion, some may be conflating (1) new budget products, (2) vintage budget products, (3) new premium products, and (4) vintage premium products.
One can often be happy with budget gear. One may not be able to physically hear the advantages of premium gear. One may habituate (“brain burn”) to whatever one owns, and enjoy it immensely.
I can appreciate everything you’re saying, even if I don’t agree with all of it. But consider if headphones were solved, why would there need to be new headphones? Why would Sennheiser come out with HD 600, 650, 800, 800S? Is this just a cash grab?
You do understand that HD600, 650, and 800 have been out for a long time right? HD600 was released in year 2000. Any revisions to HD600 and HD650 is due to tooling or access of materials and HD800s was due to the feedback that HD800 didn’t have as much bass as some people liked.
Basically Sennheiser has been selling these flagships for 1 to 2 decades already and they’re still selling them.
If you look into the history of these headphones, you’ll see that while HD800 has a wow factor when it comes to soundstage and increase treble compared to the HD600/650, many owners of both will still recommend the HD600/650 series over HD800.
Now I never said that HD580 is the solution to headphones. It does have some issues. However, I’m no longer chasing the “latest and greatest” because there is generally little to be gained over the 30 yr old dynamic.
Agreed, although at times it does seem like you’re trying argue with anyone who doesn’t share a similar experience to you.
Funny enough, one of the combos I listened to my HD 650 on was one you mentioned - Yggy with Euforia. It certainly sounded better than a lower-tier Schiit DAC and amp, but it wasn’t better than the Focal Elex, Auteur or HD 800S on the same gear (the impedance mismatch did some fun things with the Elex) or even marginally cheaper gear. At no time did I think spending that much on the electronics was worth the acoustic gains they provided to the HD 650; it made much more sense to sell the HD 650 and purchase the Elex, Auteur, etc. and use them with lower cost electronics because those combos still sounded better than the HD 650 with high end gear.
The HD 650 is a fantastic value and a true classic, but spending thousands on source gear to make it sound marginally better isn’t worth it for me. If it is for you, cool; but, buying a better headphone and starting the gear pairing journey again is more logical IMO.
Isn’t that what we’re debating? That’s my whole point. The question was “Are vintage headphones better?” and DMS makes a video that says basically “No, modern headphones measure better”.
Some are better, while some aren’t - my opinion. DMS’ opinion could be that yes, modern headphones are better. It’s his opinion based on his experiences. Also, please take into consideration that this was a YouTube video - something meant to be short and sweet. It’s very likely he’s discussing this topic more in depth on his favorite forums, which I think is a good thing.
I guess this is where we disagree. If you reread my examples, I didn’t really stop at Ygg/Euforia. In that example, that’s kind of middle of the road. I get that many enjoy the Euforia and I did while I had it but in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers, the Euforia is quite expensive for its performance.
Similar to my discussion with Resolve (which I think he agreed with) that HD580 just like when he tried HE-6 does require some more testing due to the outlandish claims of scaling. It’s unique enough due to the anecdotes found on forums and discords that you almost can’t ignore if you take others seriously. When you have certain headphones like HD580 or HE-6, I find it disingenuous to make a conclusion about it without actually trying them the way that others claim they sound with certain gear.
I apologize if I’m coming off as arguing with anyone who doesn’t share the same experience. I’m more just trying to say, give it a chance. If you believe that there was a difference between your lower-tier schiit dac and a ygg, isn’t it possible that there is still more difference to be gained when you move up? In a similar way, is it possible that sennheiser memes aren’t memes just like Susvara power memes aren’t just memes?
I just seem strange to stop halfway and make a determination when the claim is that you need extremely high end gear to hear the difference.
I totally get what you’re saying. BTW - I never said I stopped at the Yggy and Euforia, for what it’s worth. With that said, the Euforia might be “all the way” rather than “half way” for some people. No one person gets to dictate what true summit-fi is.
I guess my point would be, not everyone is going to want to endlessly try different pairings and combos to see if what someone claimed on a forum somewhere is true. If we entertained the idea of trying all other people’s experiences, we’d never have time to just sit and enjoy the gear we currently have; it would be endlessly chasing your tail and never achieving happiness. Does that mean those other people’s experiences aren’t true or valid? NO! But, at some point, you have to stop and enjoy the music!
I followed a different path than you (reverse?), and started with speakers. I found myself in an extremely happy place with my setup, but life changed and the kids got older, so it made more sense to free up that space for them, selling off my gear. Since then, no headphone I’ve auditioned has come close to what I had with my 2-channel and HT system, but that’s okay; I won’t let that ruin the enjoyment I still get from my headphone setups, and I won’t endlessly try to achieve the same level of happiness simply because I haven’t yet tried every possible combo with my headphones.
So, in the end, you, generic, me, etc., we’re all no better or worse than DMS in that we’re also sharing our answer to the question: “Are vintage headphones better?” We’re might be doing it using a different medium, but that doesn’t mean his opinion on the subject is less valid than ours.
I do hope that people like Resolve and DMS have the ability to dig deeper into comparisons than people like you and me. If not, then you’re right, their opinions are just as valid as yours and mines. However, if people are going to take a reviewer seriously, I think there are some assumptions made from the viewer’s standpoint. I have no issue with them not caring about HD580 or LCD2pf or whatever vintage headphones they deem worse than modern headphones as long as they give it a fair shake.
My definition of vintage would be something that is no longer made. If the company still sells a product new then it doesn’t matter how long it has been for sale, it’s not vintage.
But my post wasn’t an attempt to say your opinion of the HD 580 is wrong. You do you. I’m merely pointing out that if you believe companies like Schiit and Sennheiser are continuously improving their products, then it stands to reason that earlier products from those companies are not better to the majority of consumers.
To me vintage headphones are like classic cars. Sure it’s cool to occasionally take my classic car to the local coffee and cars meet on a Sunday. But I wouldn’t commute in it. And I wouldn’t take it to a track and expect it to keep up with the modern equivalent.
I’m only responding to the models that you listed. Maybe you didn’t realize that Sennheiser is still selling these. I’m not sure there’s an actual definition of “vintage” for headphones like there is for cars.
I get your analogy with cars but the main difference with cars but I think we still get into the issue of how do we define “keeping up with the modern equivalent”? If you ask a miata enthusiast which is the best miata, will you get a resounding ND? I know for sure NC wasn’t the fan favorite when it was the latest model. There are definitely many advancements made to NC/ND but there is still something special with NA/NB.
Also, I don’t think you need to worry about being offensive. There isn’t really a right or wrong but what have people experienced and does it make sense. Preference and what works can be separate. Just like someone might prefer the sound of Susvara on a dongle but no matter how red your face gets arguing for that combo, it doesn’t really work. Doesn’t even pass the “loud enough” test.
But cars have had restrictions in their design over the years for safety and emissions that can actually make earlier models better in many ways. Headphones don’t have this problem.
If you believe the lore that actually was confirmed by Axel himself at Canjam NYC 2022, Sennheiser swapped the baffle materials for the HD580/600/650 from a black paper or nylon to a silver mesh. Axel explained that it was due to the low success rate and discontinuation of the materials that they swapped over to the silver metal. The silver measured better and made it easier to manufacturer within the tolerances but from anecdotal experiences, the black nylon seems to have better natural decay and less grainy treble compared to the silver baffle. YMMV but I would think that would be one example of how processes that were available before are not available now which can make earlier models better.
Another example would be the HE-6 lore. Hifiman does not have the engineering team that made the original HE-6 and have no intention of making those drivers ever again. The IP is rumored to be gone but many believe the earlier versions have something that later versions do not. I personally have not tried the different versions (compared to having tried many different versions of HD580/600/650) so I cannot speak too much more about the HE-6. However, I do think it’s another example of how older designs that cannot be made anymore could possibly be better than some modern designs.
Lastly DMS talks about the LCD-2pf in his video. That’s just another example of a driver that Audeze tried to bring back in the LCD-2 classic version but still does not quite capture what people seem to be drawn to with the prefazor models. I personally just picked one up. It’s a good headphone. Is it better than the newer Audeze headphones? Not particularly. Is it a lot worse than the current Audeze headphones? Not really.
Those three headphones were specifically picked in the video because they do have a cult following and I do believe the following is there for a reason. Unless “better” is described in a more concrete fashion, I think you’re up a creek without a paddle trying to prove that current headphones are truly that much “better” than these “vintage/10-20 year” headphones.
It’s also interesting that headphones have recenntly enjoyed the benefits that PEQ have brought to the table. Headphones receive these digital “upgrades” to their sound applied by the source equipment’s software. I can’t think of an analog to that for cars from the '60s.
So, the thesis of entire thread revolves around three products:
The Senn 600 family, as greatly surpassed by the 800 S in every way (I own 4 Senns, and the 800 S stomps all over my Made in Ireland 600)
The overpriced and unreliable HE-6. I won’t buy or recommend any HiFiMan. Ever.
The extremely heavy and uncomfortable LCD-2 series.
As I don’t care one bit about buying any of these in the future…please enjoy them. I won’t compete for used models now or for the next 50 years. It’ll keep the prices low. They may be better within a product family, but none of those families are relevant to my buying plans.
