I’m not saying those DACs aren’t worth purchasing, just that you should look at their sound qualities not tech specs when choosing what to purchase.
Fwiw, I haven’t heard either of them.
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What are some DACs, besides Schitt that hold these qualities. Just like you said it maybe a mediocre dac chip but output is grand. Making it even better than the best of the best dac chips lacking that.
And you may refrain from what you know as that maybe a 1000 dollar dac and obviously not suitable, which is what I am thinking.
We have a community here and many opinions from knowledgeable folks, hoping this reaches someone who can provide some solid feedback on other options.
I haven’t been active in these threads for a while but I had to get my 2c in reading many of your posts.
Consider 2 different types of amps: one SS and one OTL (tubes) since these 2 amps will cover almost any type of headphone except E-stats. If this is too much then my next recommendation would be a Project Ember, one of the few amps that you can vary the output impedance to match almost any headphone with the added benefit of rolling tubes if you feel like it.
As for DACs, just start with a Modi3 and after that hopefully you can try other DACs and if you find that there is little difference between DACs (98% of my friends and family can’t tell the difference between my Bifrost Uber and Bifrost MB) you might get away with your wallet thanking you.
Schiit pretty much rules today’s DAC market in terms of value, that’s why we’re all giving you Schiit recommendations. 
They’ve just made it very difficult to recommend alternatives.
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Good DACs… Schiit Modi, iFi Zen DAC, Chord Mojo, Drop Grace DAC are good inexpensive DACs that I have heard. Maybe start there?
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Excellent post and great advice. I think its a must in this hobby to find your likes and dislikes before shelling out the big money. Though even for the very knowledgeable folk on the forum every day is still a learning day. For an average Joe like me I am just trying to learn what I can from reading every post.
In the end its all about the music and ones likes and dislikes are unique to everyone. So its always best to make your own mind up in the end. Though I am very prone to getting swep up into hype and excitement of new shinies. Just a few thoughts but all I really wanted to do was thank you for your wise words.
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There are many similar DACs from other vendors, I don’t feel that Schiit offers any more value than a dozen others in the same price brackets. All use similar parts and make similar design compromises. Some offer a different and (IMO) better interface/user experience too.
Schiit has a mixed reputation in more than a few circles for both reliability and performance. However, Schiit has a following per USA construction, a distinct brand identity, and a strong fanbase. This does preserve resale value relative to some other brands, especially those based in China. I don’t hate, but I don’t consider them the only option or always the best option.
There’s a lot of armchair reasoning, egocentrism, ideology, and blind loyalty in audio and every other hobby. Given that audio is experienced differently by each set of ears, it’s essential to let each person learn from experience.
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I should rephrase that by “ruling today’s market in value”, I don’t mean that they’re the only ones. I just mean that as far as I’m concerned, they’re the most popular brand across the entry- till mid/high-end market, and offer the largest variety of different equipment for good prices. It doesn’t make other brands irrelevant, but it makes them difficult for me to recommend over a Schiit solution.
Of course I have my biases, there are certain brands I don’t recommend because I don’t trust them or because I just don’t agree with their business model. I just don’t feel comfortable recommending products to others if I don’t agree with that choice myself. That would render my advice worthless, as the point of sharing advice as I see it is to spare newcomers from the pitfalls we’ve fallen into ourselves. I always try to be clear about my recommendations being based on nothing but my own ideas and opinions, and try my best to be respectful of different opinions too.
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Thanks, Paul,
I think I want to add just a little bit more, focusing mostly on the music. But first a last word or two on DAC. The Modius is really new, and few of us have actually heard it. It probably will have a fairly clinical sound, which is, of course good or bad depending on your equipment. @HeadphoneNoob should understand that we are talking about different styles of good things here, and that many of the suggestions are fine at the entry level. I still don’t know which side of the balanced/unbalanced discussion I fall on. Personally, I’m fine with Single Ended for most things.
I experimented with balanced cables for my Sennheiser HD-6xx, and was not particularly impressed. I have not put balanced cables on my Hifiman HE-560s, and really haven’t felt the need, I did want balanced from the Bifrost 2 to my STAX amp, but that’s a whole different level than a new hobbyist needs. @HeadphoneNoob, balanced cables may be in your future, but the original use for them was long cable runs in noisy environments.
Regarding Schiit, one can say that the have by far the most amusing website of all the manufacturers. I think there is a bit of pro-Schiit bias on the forum, possibly because of pride of US manufacture and the west-coast location of many members. I’m an east-coaster, and I readily admit to a slight bias in favor of VPI for turntables, Grado, and Conrad-Johnson. Schiit products are really quite good, they pay attention, are generally built solidly, have good customer service, and deliver value for the money. The major downsides are that they will not support MQA, and some products don’t come in your choice of silver or black (plus they have two slightly different silver finishes)(and they don’t come in PURPLE).
@HeadphoneNoob, if you look around here, MQA is it’s own rabbit hole. It is the best quality offered by the TIDAL music service. At one point, that was, perhaps the best game in town for streaming. I subscribed to TIDAL and to ROON, which is a music player and database service that works with TIDAL and Qobuz music services, and is very well thought of here. iFi supports MQA as does AudioQuest and many others. About a year after I subscribed to TIDAL, Qobuz, a French-based service, began to be offered in the US. Most people seem to give a slight edge to Qobuz over TIDAL. It does not use MQA, but presents high-res streaming directly. I have not yet switched due to inertia. I still like TIDAL because I doubt I’d hear much difference, and TIDAL has a very good catalog in several areas that are important to me (early Afro-Cuban and Caribbean music, plus South American folk, and 1940’s and 50’s Latin Invasion in general).
The Pro-ject stuff isn’t bad, from all I hear, but it is focused on supporting their main turntable business. And neither Pro-ject nor Music Hall are my favorites in their categories.
But see my notes about TIDAL vs Qobuz. Amazon HD is now a player too (but not supported by ROON, so for me it’s a non-starter) But now we’re starting to talk about the important stuff - MUSIC. ROON helps me discover new music. I also want you to know that there are those here with more experience, better budgets, and better ears than me. Pay particular attention to comments by @Torq, @Tchoupitoulas, @generic, @Resolve, @TylersEclectic, @ProfFalkin and at least a half-dozen others that I’ve not called out. My background makes me value new users because following the new user journey is one of the only ways to understand some of the process, and reminds us what’s important.
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Indeed, I hear you out @pennstac, and those are the factors I am taking into consideration which is why I chose a 400 dollar dac. I don’t want to spend that much on the pro-ject S2. But again it seems to cover all the bases of future proofing.
I will most definitely be using tidal for certain and amazon HD. I saw Roon the other day and I like the entire idea of Roon as well. It does unfortunately come with a price.
Now maybe we should take the time, since you guys can help, what is this entire thing with PCM, DSD, and MQA. I understand the philosophy behind it. But do I even or do we even have access to these files? Obviously I have understood Tidal does MQA.
The Pro-ject was appealing as it seems to have the additional formats available up dsd512, mqa, so on…
I am hesitant because I see some reviews on the product and they are having issues with MQA and say only the lowest format of dsd is grand.
But again, I am not set on any particular dac at this time.
@ProfFalkin mentioned to reach out to Alan from sourceAV. Very helpful and pleasant gentleman. Ironically, he is even said the magnius was a good match with magnetic planars. Not sure if the gentleman @Jsim who commented upon the Asgard 3 as a better choice for an amp was using planars with his experience, nor do I know if Alan has experience with magnius and maybe just going off of his personal knowledge.
And it’s definitely not a selling point, they don’t sell Schitt or HiFiman.
MQA would literally be my last (non)consideration after headphones, amps, DACs, plutonium cables, voodoo dolls, pixie dust, line conditioners, etc. Plain old CD audio at 16/44.1 sounds really good on the right equipment. Furthermore, a very large percentage of music was recorded on poor quality equipment or mastered poorly. You are sometimes lucky to have CD quality.
Vendors want to generate excitement and want something better to help sell new systems. Too bad that the human ear and brain doesn’t evolve and improve on the same timescale. CDs were designed to exceed human hearing potential – but the format stumbled with errors and the DACs of the 1980s and 1990s. IMO that’s been well ironed out, so the law of diminishing returns has been in full force for years with 24/96, MQA, DSD, etc. MQA is something I’d think about only after having a really strong set of headphones in hand and after fully exhausting an exploration of amps.
Indeed, I am fully aware of that, there’s a European gentleman stating these facts.
Another was an example of testing out a student who has a degree in audio engineering that was checking it out different sample rates to see what is best. And on top of that young or has better abilities to really listen.
I’m just putting out the proposition that these files may or may not even exist for the average Joe. So what is the reason for me to seek out all these formats which are unavailable.
MQA is something desirable for me, which I am taking into regard what you said, since I will be using tidal.
I am not against in ear, but would definitely rather over ear if possible. I wear in ear hearing protection a lot for work, so not crazy about wearing in ear when not working.
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I sincerely wonder whether MQA is detectable on Tidal. I joined around the start of 2020 and had it for 5 months (special promo). Tidal smooths and filters all its content, whereby it can be notably easier on the ears versus Qobuz and Amazon HD. Somewhere (maybe here) I saw a post on how Tidal cuts off the high end. This smoothing may mask or render redundant any benefits of MQA.
I’d honestly like to blind test their MQA vs. non-MQA content.
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I wouldn’t be surprised, I’ve seen the post on here I believe that said MQA just sounds louder. Possibly why they do some altering to calm the masses
My experience with MQA is that I dont care about it anymore. Its not lossless but its better than 320 mp3, in general. As you mentioned, its not a reason to buy a DAC over something else; however, its the only streaming service I have access to that allows me to stream higher quality stuff, cant get Q or Amazon HD where I live yet. At least Primephonic will stream high res.
Compared to “high res” flac files I have of the same content MQA is overemphasized in the bass, lacks a bit of resolution and clarity, plus they do add some gain to song it so it can be louder, sometimes ridiculously so.
Having said that, unless you have ears that know what you are listening for you most likely wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Good well produced/mastered music is what we should all be looking for. File size, sample rates and file type are somewhat irrelevant, for the most part, but I dont want to complicate the issue further.
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I think the biggest benefit of MQA are the newer masters rather than the implemented filters. Most of them are excellent, in my experience.
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I think there is truth to that. I should have mentioned that one of the advantages of MQA is that I think they require a certain level of recording equipment to be certified, plus the audio engineer may be more aware of the need for a product that sounds good on MQA, they aint just engineering for a compressed Mp3. Good point!
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MCA is detectable, particularly with an A-B comparison. I heartily agree that MCA is not a consideration, UNLESS there is a particular reason for using TIDAL. I tried to point out that here in the USA, at some point in the past it was the best game in town. This is no longer true.
@HeadphoneNoob, if you are very lucky and skilled, and experienced, on really good equipment, you may be able to tell the difference between one high-res streaming service and another.
Amazon HD and Qobuz are fully as good or better than TIDAL as far as quality and do not use MQA. Ignore the codec alphabet soup (PCM/DSD). It’s just technology, and technology changes.
As is point out, 44.1/16 is the CD (also known as Redbook) standard. On good equipment and done properly it’s great. It’s what I listen to at least AT LEAST half the time. That’s what I get on Radio Paradise streaming on the FLAC setting. Radio Paradise is free. It’s a great service for music discovery.
I was merely pointing out a few of the philosophical different choices made by some of the companies. 3 years ago MCA was important to me. Today, I don’t have MCA on my main setup and I don’t care.
The best thing about MCA, is that artists that know their output will be MCA encoded MAY choose to pay a bit more attention to the mixing and mastering process.
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Sorry to move the conversation briefly away from MQA but I wanted to offer a few comments for @ETEXAG about closed-back headphones under $500.
The Focal Elegia is, potentially, an excellent option if you can find one on sale for your price. Its MSRP is higher but Adorama and other vendors have been offering it for as little as $400 recently. Rumor has it that the Elegia is being discontinued. I’ve only tried it a couple of times, for about 45 minutes in total, and I liked it very much - a nice, fairly neutral, and clean, clear sound with decent bass and not the congestion of other closed-back headphones. Others with more experience than me aren’t fond of the Elegia so do plenty of research and try it for yourself first, if you can.
Some here seem to like the Shure 1540. I’ve not heard it so I can’t help, sorry. The same thing applies to the Meze 99 Classics, which also seems to be well regarded.
If you don’t mind buying used, the Mr. Speakers/Dan Clark Audio (same company but with a name change in the last year or so) Aeon Closed, first or second options might be worth trying, as might the Audeze LCD2-Closed, although I’ve not heard the latter or the second iteration of the Aeon. I wasn’t fond of the first Aeon, finding it a bit too congested and warm for my tastes, but that’s a matter of preference and opinion and not objective reality.
Again, used, you might also like the Massdrop/Drop Fostex TR-X00 or TH-X00 series of headphones. They’re not ideally comfortable for all listeners, and they don’t pretend to be neutral (like the Elegia) but they’re fun, with a v-shaped signature, lots of slam and glorious, rich, deep bass if that’s something you want. They come in three versions: Mahogany, as the cheapest, is said to have a sound that’s between the Purpleheart ones (which are bassier but have wonky treble) and the Ebony (which have great bass but a smoother, more coherent treble). The TR version has removable cables; the TH hasn’t. Again, they’re only available used now. I have the Ebony version and love it; it’s not the most resolving headphone but it’s a lot of fun and great if you like electronic music. It’s not fully sealed, though (it’s partially vented), so it won’t provide quite the isolation of other closed-back headphones.
If you want to buy new and you could stretch to $600, you might consider the Fostex 610, but be sure to read reviews of it carefully, I’m not sure it was as well received as the Drop TR-X00 series.
These Fostex headphones use a particular kind of propriety dynamic driver that is quite popular and can be found in other brands’ headphones. (Fostex also has a planar, closed back headphone, the RP Series, which were highly popular for people wanting to get into modding). The other manufacturers that make closed-back headphones using the Fostex dynamic driver include Denon and E-MU (although Denon now seems to be making its own proprietary driver).
I’d encourage you to look into the E-MU Teak as an excellent option. See what @ProfFalkin has to say about it. He’s far more more an authority than I am. See here, for instance.
I hope this helps as a starting point!
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