General purchase advice: Ask your questions/for advice here!

Purchase Advice
6002

Well, we have a pantheon here. I mean there are gods and gods. It depends on where you are. If you’re 6, and you’ve lost your first baby tooth, then the Tooth Fairy ranks pretty high on the god tier. And when I was in that state, a quarter $0.25 was the price class.

If you have lots of disposable income (@Torq) you’re routinely looking at stuff well over $10K and sometimes over $50K. So Wodin? Kali? some pretty major gods.

Based on my stature and ear-hair, I guess I’m more in the Middle-Earth tier, possibly Aulë, who created the seven fathers of the Dwarves, Lord of Matter and Master of all Crafts. Price tier? Well you need to mine some gold, but not that much.

So in short, God Tier is just over what you can comfortably afford, if you care about it, and an amount you plan to insure if you’re rolling in dough. As for what makes the difference, @Nuance is exactly right. Transducer. But the best headphones will show up
crap in the entire chain from recording to DAC to Amp. And often will sound entirely unremarkable on cheap chains.

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6003

I use two kinda separate systems, currently running off of one DAC. I use an RME ADI-2 DAC fs fed by USB from my desktop, which I know isn’t ideal but the usb on the RME is galvanically isolated so I am not concerned about noise. My ‘critical listening” setup is the RME feeding a SingXer Sa-1 which drives LCD-XC bubinga wood with 2021 pad revision. My “fun” setup is the RME feeding a Feliks Euforia OG and I switch between ZMF AC and VC depending on the type of music. I tend to like closed back headphones because I live with others and don’t want them hearing my music. I also have 6XX, which was my first good headphone.

I’m perfectly happy with the critical listening setup; details are crisp and clean, and there’s tons of separating between instruments.

In terms of the fun setup, it sounds beautiful right now but I know it can be better. I mostly want the most immersive and 3D stage as possible. I want to be placed inside the center of the music and have sound coming from all directions. The VC does this well already and the AC has a very wide stage for a closed back but is not as 3D. I have heard that R2R DACs emphasize this quality, although they don’t necessarily have the best technical performance. But in the fun setup, I don’t really care if some of the technicalities are obscured if the music is engaging and makes me get lost.

I hope my preferences help you all help me make a decision.

Thanks!

1 Like
6004

As has been said, depends what you are willing to spend.
There is a practical limit on what you can spend on a headphone amp, there isn’t a lot of up beyond Riviera AIC 10 or Viva Egoista, or Mass Kobo 465 (not an exaustive list) so <$20K for the amp. But having said that if you decide speaker amps are a positive for you headphones, and I know people who have gone that way, there really is no limit.
DAC’s your limit is your budget, at what point your still adding value is a question of what you hear and what it’s worth, it’s easy to spend $50K if you have it, and you can spend 4 or 5 times that.
That’s before you get into cables, power conditioners, streamers……

Do they make a difference, absolutely, but you buying a system, and things have to work well together, while it’s true that there are more clear differences in headphones, once your at endgame there, you really need to have invested similarly in the electronics to get the most out of them.

What you should rationally spend is a different question.

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6005

Amen.

I passed that milepost a while ago…

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6007

If by “degradation of signal” you mean that the end-result is different from the source then yes it can, but there are some caveats to it. And how/whether you’ll know if it is happening also depends on a number of factors.

The most important thing is understanding what you are sending over that HDMI cable. If it’s an actual HDMI signal (HDMI protocol) the answer is very different to using an HDMI cable to transmit raw I2S data from, say, a streamer or a DAC. And it’s different again if it is USB-C alternate mode HDMI.

Proper HDMI signals (combined video, audio and control signals per the various HDMI standards) have some basic ECC information for the audio and control signals. So, even if transmission errors occur, they can, to a limited extent, be corrected by the receiver.

With video, it’s more complicated, but also easier to tell if you’re getting a clean signal - play some HDCP content and if you get an HDCP error message then the data is not making it from the source to the receiver intact.

Since HDMI is not packet based, there’s no retry/resend capability.

Protocols, other than true HDMI, (such as LVDS I2S) can vary.

Allowable jitter for HDMI audio is very broad, so that’s not a good thing … though cable length/quality shouldn’t affect it (the timing of the signal is the timing of the signal).

The earlier HDMI specifications (either through 1.3 or 1.4) were okay to about 5 meters in length, newer standards can work over longer distances (25 feet is very common). But bear in mind these lengths take into account the entire HDMI chain and protocol in use. Just using a “higher version*” HDMI cable won’t make a significant difference in achievable length for a pre 1.3/1.4 source/receiver. At that point you’re into “it might work, or it might not”.

*HDMI “versions” are more about what formats, protocols and frequencies are supported by the source and receiver than about electrical differences in the cabling, and then wether a pin-compliant/spec-compliant cable can reliably achieve those.

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6008

Just want to add one point: there really is no such thing as “standard quality” in an HDMI cable. Manufacturing quality varies greatly, and there’s plenty of cheap garbage out there.

You can read quite a but about HDMI cables here, and the sidebar links there can take you farther.

Like @Torq said, it depends on what you’re sending, but (coming from an engineering background where we always “played it safe” with cables) I would recommend something from BJC, either:

  1. Series 1E Bonded Pair – one of very few passive cables that can reliably run 18 Gbps at 20 ft. Downside is it’s stiff and thick. Also maybe the only HDMI cable that’s actually made in the U.S.
    Costs $50 for a 20-ft cable.
  2. Series 3 Active – more compliant, but directional. Made in China. Certified “high speed with ethernet”. Costs $40 for a 20-ft cable.

Yes, I’m a bit of a fanboy of BJC/Belden. They’re up-front about what they do and actually publish specs for their cables, like this for the Series 1E for the technically-inclined.

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6009

A few years back I went through my cable drawer and compared a bunch of old HDMI cables to the newer ones. Some were in-the-box freebies and I’d bought others. The early 1.x stuff was awful – they generated yellow, blurry, and dim video output with modern equipment. The long cables (>2 meter) were awful. I tossed them all.

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6010

Thank you so much, @Torq and @Lou_Ford, I appreciate the authoritative information. Interesting, @generic, about your experiment.

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6011

I’m seeking a tube-like amp around the $2k price point. I would love to get a full SET 300B model like the WA5, but I lack the desk space and budget.

Would you mind sharing your thoughts? Is the iCAN the best bet?

6012

Well, it’s a very nice amp (I’m still a fan), but it is nothing like a SET 300B amplifier. For a start, the tube side is just on the input, and a good portion, perhaps most, of the “tube flavor” comes from the power-tubes in a tube amplifier.

What headphones are you planning on driving with it? That’ll help narrow down what viable pure-tube options there are (slim pickings around $2K unfortunately).

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6013

Well, let’s use the HE1000 as an example. The thing is I’m not trying to stick with pure tube options, just the best representation of tube sound. I’ve actually just been reading the thread on the Cayin N30LE (talk about high praise!), and I’m wondering if that’s the more sensible route. Are there other devices taking advantage of the Korg Nutube? Is the WA8 a good compromise?

6014

I think it’s a mistake to get a tube amp to understand the “tube sound”, I understand the desire, but you’ll at best get the characature version of it.
and I don’t think there is ONE tube sound.
At the entry level a Bottle Head Crack sounds nothing like a Quicksilver headphone amp.
And tube amps are very much reflections of their components, and with a few exceptions I wouldn’t bother with them until you get into larger expenditures, there are too many compromises for me at the entry level.

I will say for good tube amps on a budget, the Quicksilver amp is hard to beat at it’s price point, or arguable anywhere near it.

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6015

A good start, and one which pretty much rules out OTL models.

Cayin N8, N8ii, C9 (nice, but fussy about charging) and N30LE. The first, and the last (in “Classic” mode), have the most tube/SET flavor.

There’s the A&K SP2000T (wouldn’t buy; slow and runs some ancient land-before-time-forgot version of closed Android).

A bunch of DIY options from Pete Millett; I’ve built several and they were all very enjoyable.

I think iBasso did a DAP that had an optional NuTube amp module …

There are probably others, just not coming to mind.

It’s a lovely sounding amplifier. Distinctly flavored, and nicely tubey.

It’s a fair bit bigger than it seems. Battery life is very short. The charger is not USB so you have to keep that with you, also. And you need to be careful with balanced input (use Woo’s cable or don’t do it at all).

I quite like the various Fireflies models … though am less keen on the DACs.

WA-6SE is very nice. The WA-6 is too, but the SE is a better bet overall.

But these are all a far cry from their WA-5 (VERY tube dependent), WA23 and so on.

There are various other options. None sound like good 300Bs … and even then the 300Bs you use a significant factor. Also, steer clear of “fully balanced” tube amplifiers if you want the most tube flavors … as balanced designs will cancel out the even-order harmonics (which defeats the point).

Which leaves, mostly, hybrids. The current Schiit Vali is a nice option, at low cost. Might give you an idea of what you’re getting into. Lyr+ is better still. But neither is “very” tube-like. Valhalla is (or was) more so … and is one of the few OTLs that might work well with low-impedance planar cans.

The Pro iCan is probably my favorite, reasonable, hybrid. It’s really a do-it-all option. And it’ll drive almost anything.

Unfortunately, good tube options are expensive (good iron costs, so do good passives). And then most of them need good tubes, which are more expensive still.

The DNA amplifiers tend to be better than most when using non-optimal tubes, but you’re looking at a Starlett or a Sonnet 22, I think, around $2K.

…

Not sure how much that helps …

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6016

My God, that couldn’t be more helpful! With no hope of trying any of these things in person, getting to benefit from all your experience is much appreciated :pray:

I’ll start looking into all of these… Thank you :blush:

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6017

“Best representation?” Hmm. I’d not say that’s possible. Too many directions to go.

Old McIntosh speaker amps may be the benchmark for “tube sound” – fuzzy, creamy, hazy, rolled-off, etc. However, this is NOT a function of tubes. It’s a product of their transformers and architecture. Some tube amps are lean and clean (e.g., LTA means Linear Tube Audio). Some amps are overdriven (Schiit Lyr 3) and make all music sound a bit like the fuzz of electric guitars or vocals recorded by Peggy Lee (Fever) and Elle King (Exes & Oh’s).

Some expensive (e.g., $20K) speaker tube amps sound horrible to my ears – I pick up on overdrive, timing issues, distortion, and other distracting trash. (Consider that many builders in the audio hobby industry are older with damaged or declining hearing; excessive brightness is a routine issue). On the other hand, some tube amps sound expansive and 3D. I advise that you attend an audio show to demo these variations in person, as price is not highly correlated with preference or performance.

Even a single tube amp can come across differently with different setups. My Bottlehead Crack ($500 build cost) changes substantially in a good way with a Coke-bottle shaped power tube over the factory straight tubes. The small input tube affects the tone and body up or down, whether there is more or less harmonics, and whether whines or problematic artifacts come through. I don’t like it much with some tubes. There’s not much refinement in the components at this price point.

The Lyr 3 hybrid does a good job of producing the retro/hot tube timbre, but at the expense of a very narrow soundstage and flat dynamics. It’s a good example of what can be achieved with a versatile hybrid in the $500 bracket.

Do not underestimate the value of transformers and capacitor quality versus tubes per se. I paid $600 for esoteric capacitor upgrades with my Decware Zen Taboo Mk4 – given how clean and pure and gentle it sounds, I’m guessing these made a big difference. I don’t have the entry-level model for comparison.

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6018

I see, this is very helpful! I do love the sound of good distortion :grin:

I guess I’m trying to make the best of a small budget and a small desk. I would love to go to a CanJam, but that won’t be possible until SoCal at the end of the year. So i think I’ll forego the tube rabbit hole for now, and try something like the Lyr 3 or the iCAN.

6019

We can agree to disagree on this one, while I currently don’t have a Push/Pull tube amp in use, I have owned and have enjoyed a number of push/pull tube amps. But I don’t really target anything at all bloomy, those amps have their place for me, but it’s not the draw of tubes.

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6020

The Cayin HA-3A seems to be highly regarded and is rather versatile. It is 6v6 rather than 300B output tubes and is about $1,600.

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6021

Well, we can agree to disagree on “the point” of tube amps … no argument there! :wink:

What I should have said was that cancelling out even-order harmonics, something inherent to fully-balanced designs, defeats much of the point of tube amps for me.

Certainly not the only reason people enjoy them.

But absent that factor, I personally tend to go solid-state rather than balanced-tubes - not the least part of which is that a well-matched quad of my favorite 300Bs (if it were possible to find such a set at this point) would run about the same price as a fully-loaded Tesla Model S Plaid.

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6023

Ideally … and from a simple perspective, yes.

And that ideal would be that 8 is a minimum.

Rarely an issue with modern, competent, headphone amplifiers (even $100 models) … as they tend to be well under 1 ohm OI.

The specs are known, just not the way they measure power.

Headphone OI (output impedance) on the iFi micro iDSD Signature is less than 1 ohm w/o ieMatch, and I think it was 10 ohms with it engaged.

I’m pretty sure it’s 470 ohms … unless things have changed since I last saw a schematic (or the schematic was incorrectly labeled).

Higher the impedance of the amplifier, the lower current it will be able to deliver. Higher the impedance of the headphone, the lower current it will draw. If the impedance of OI of the amplifier is higher than that of the headphone, the amplifier will lose more current (and thus power) internally than it can provide to the headphone.

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