13R gets pretty warm. Its probably as warm as a typical Class A amp or a small tube amp.
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Anyone have experience or thoughts on BURSON Conductor 3X Reference or SPL Phonitor xe w/dac to pair with the susvara as a stand alone unit?
Iāve been told it works flawlessly as an induction cooktop for breakfast while you listen.
But realy, Iāve asked a few owners the same question and it gets about as hot as a gsx-mini when measured with a laser thermometer in most cases. Seems like 120-130f is normal in mid 70F climate
Thatās probably about right, or maybe a little cooler than that. I can touch it with my hand easily, but its warmer than other headphone amps, outside of tubes, that Iāve had, and probably similar to some of the Schiit amps.
I put a AC Infinity usb fan on it and blow directly into it, instead of out, and it cools it down quite well and keeps my room pretty cool. If I donāt, then that along with my other equipment can drive my room temp up a few degrees.
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I own the SPL Phonitor XE w/dac and Iām thoroughly enjoying it with my Susvara, Ananda, Stellia and even LCDi3. The XE is a dedicated heaphone amp in the sense that there are no pre-outs or any other outs other than the 4 headphone jacks (2 in front and 2 on the back) and it drives the sus with as much authority as my 50 wpc SAE receiver (as far as I can tell). The sound can be described as highly detailed and smooth, definitely great for extended listening. The DAC768 is excellent and is by far the best integrated dac Iāve heard (vs Arche, RME, JotR etc). It has the right blend of detail and musicality for me with the Arche being a close second. But the XE has so much more speed and headroom over the Arche when paired with the Susvara so unfortuntately the Arche is used only occasionally these days.
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Thanks for the info. I assumed it got hot looking at the design but I guess itās worth it if form factor is a priority. I would love to see a bakoon 33r thatās in a larger case with balanced out.
Damn, I just saw this message. Somehow my notification settings werenāt how they shouldāve been.
But weāve chatted on HeadFi of course.
My amp search took me down a meandering path to the Accuphase e380. Dynamic, hard hitting, amp that wakes the Susvara up, so to speak, lol. And works equally well with the TC (which I currently use mostly (only?) for metal and some classic rock).
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@Resolve Iāve been looking at the Susvara recentlyā¦ any insight here as far as a comparison with a Verite or Diana v2 (just other high end stuff Iāve listened to). A more general question would be - do you recommend any open backs as an upgrade to a VO or Diana v2, other than the Susvara?
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Verite has that ZMF house sound that some people like. The Sus arenāt going to be as mid-centric, itāll have a more detailed, planar-esque bass and vocals are a bit more forward. I felt like the vocals were too recessed with the verite but everything was pretty good. Good detail, imaging and soundstage. All that is still present with the Sus but itās taken up a notch. IMO, Sus is closer to what I would consider to be a more neutral tonality when compared with Verite.
Diana V2 - definitely smaller soundstage but very good detail. If I remember correctly, a little warmer than Sus but has more of the planar timbre when compared to Sus. Sus has a nicer timbre and tone imo and is definitely a tier above the Diana V2. It doesnāt mean the V2 is a bad headphone but Sus does everything better than the Diana whether it be resolution, bass, timbre, soundstage, etc. Also, some people donāt find the V2ās very comfortable. I found them pretty good but Sus definitely more comfortable for more people.
Hope that helps.
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Driftingbunnies has done a good explanation that I generally agree with. Susvara is in a bit of a different class as far as both tonal balance and technical performance goes.
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Anything other than a Susvara I should look at as a VO / Diana v2 upgrade? Or is the Susvara lone at the top?
There are quite a few headphones you can consider as upgrades to the VO.
Susvara, TC 1266, RAAL Sr1a, Solitaire P
A tier down would be Utopia, Final D8000/D8000 pro (havenāt heard this but I would assume itās here), Diana Phi, HE1000se, for some people LCD-4 or RAD-0.
Iām sure there are some Iām missing. I would expect something like Audeze CRBN would be competitive with the top tier headphones as well but weāll have to see once people start getting them.
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Relevant factors include your current and intended amp/DAC, particular sonic elements that you prioritize, whether you have a weight ceiling, and insights on how you compare/heard the Verite vs V2.
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Are there things you find lacking with VO and Diana that you wish to improve upon? In terms of tonality, VO is an acquired taste so youāll be hard press to find something else like it. Technically I do think the utopia edged it for dynamic driver hp with regards to resolution and overall refinement but again subjected to what gap you are looking to fill.
So Iāve been doing lots of listening with the Boulder 866 over the last couple weeks and I did say I would share further thoughts so here I am.
Currently, Iāve been listening with my headphones, but these general thoughts with the Susvara and Abyss seem to carry over to my speakers too.
Obviously, itās still very early days, and Iāll be doing tons more listening. However, with that being said, itās the best Iāve personally heard my headphones ever sound. The most detail, the most neutral without sounding at all clinical or cold. The DAC is amazing for the price the add on costs, I feel. Usually built in DACs seem to be an afterthought convenience, but this one plays above its price point. Perhaps there is some synergy going on as well (one would think this is very likely.) Thunderous, extremely controlled bass. The control it exerts over the drivers, especially of the Susvara is unlike anything Iāve heard. I thought the Kinki EX-M1 which is very similar in power rating to the 866 was good, but this is completely different. It is truly amazing, and shows that power isnāt everything, but other factors matter too.
All in all, Iām very happy with how the 866 is working with my cans, and will share my full review when I write it up in 2-3 weeks or so.
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D8000P are a very solid step above diana v2 in almost every way but have a bit hotter of a trebble tuning. If you can tame that trebble with tubes or dont mind it ij the first place its a very easy pick over diana v2 imo
Hi guys, Iāve been thinking about taking my amp game to the next level, and was looking forward to the new Holo amp thatās rumoured to be around the corner. In the meantime, Iām considering trying to pick up a used Benchmark AHB2, as I hear so much about how a speaker amp can take the Susvara to the next level. I currently use a GS-X Mini, and a Pendant SE.
However, it seems that there are two camps - one swears by pairing the Susvara with a speaker amp, and the other says that the idea of power-hungry planars needing anything more than a good headphone amp is a myth. This recent review of the Susvara has a whole section on the subject, wherein the reviewer debunks the idea that a headphone amp is insufficient:
What are your thoughts on this? Is there anyone here who has gone from a powerful headphone amplifier to a speaker amp, and has noticed no real difference? Or perhaps the difference was significant? I remember @Resolve mentioning recently that the AMP-13R made a noticeable difference with detail retrieval (paraphrasing), and Iād follow him into a burning building, so Iām tempted to trust the notion that speaker amps can change things.
Given that this seems to be a slightly contentious issue, perhaps it could be put to the test. I realise that there are technical improvements/disadvantages that might emerge when going from one amp to another that canāt be shown on a frequency response graph. However, would it not be possible to test the Susvara with a āpowerfulā headphone amp like the A90 or the Cayin IHA-6, and then test it with something like the Bakoon AMP-13R and compare the two frequency responses? If, for example, the bass becomes more elevated when using the Susvara with a power amplifier as some people have suggested it does, thatās something that could be measured and proved.
Imagine if there was no real difference between the frequency responses. That would be pretty interesting to see, too. Like I say, I realise that differences in staging, punch, detail retrieval etc couldnāt be demonstrated, and peoples experiences with those factors when switching from a standard headphone amp to a fully-fledged power amp would have to remain anecdotal.
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Youāre not going to see much difference in FR when you compare amps like this. A good amp should not be adding or subtracting in the FR (or essentially EQāing) a headphone. What will change is things that currently have direct measurements like macro and microdynamics.
Thereās no need to really measure the differences between the amps you have used in your example. There are plenty of experiences from here and head-fi that claim the speaker amp is better than the A90. What is more reasonable, the fact that the 13R is a better amp than the A90 or that everyone who says that is so biased that they arenāt able to make an objective comparison? In that group, I would think there are people who truly do not want to believe there are differences and those who do. Yet itās not really up to debate whether or not there are amps better than the A90 for Susvara. I think those who will fight to the death that A90 is plenty good are those who have not compared or heard Susvara on a speaker amp.
Iād say just do the comparison yourself and let us know what you think. Iāve done the comparison (with a different headamp/speaker amp) and have experienced with Susvara will always get better the better you amplification is. Quality of the power is equally as important as the quantity. Thatās why even though something like the A90 might look good on paper, I donāt think the quality of itās power is good enough to get the best out of Susvara. I might be wrong but Iāve had numerous people not enjoy the Susvara/A90 combination.
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Thanks for the reply. Youāre getting into the sort of thing that I was thinking myself - that there are going to be people who have spent big money on high-end amps who are biased towards the idea that their purchase has been worth it, and if you canāt necessarily afford or justify the outlay for a high-end amp, you might be biased towards the idea that cheaper options are all you need (Zeos has built a kingdom on this side of the argument). If I owned the 13R - and I wish I did - I wouldnāt want to read that the A90 (which Iām not particularly a fan of) can do the same job (I donāt personally think it could).
What Iām interested in is the fact that there are some people who have heard the Susvara on both high-end speaker amps and also on headphone amps, and say that thereās no difference. As I say, things like macro and microdynamics, detail retrieval, stage etc arenāt objectively measurable (that I know of), so thatās not up for debate - everyoneās ears are different. However, other people say that the frequency response is different when you use a speaker amp - specifically, Iāve read in a few places that the bass reproduction comes alive with sufficient amplification - and that strikes me as something that would be interesting to see in a graph. In fact I donāt think Iāve ever seen a frequency response graph used to demonstrate the sonic characteristics of an amp.
Iād personally find that really interesting - people talk all the time about how some amps are warmer, bassier, or hotter up-top. Imagine having a pair of objectively neutral control headphones that you put on a measurement rig each time you review an amp, and actually seeing how different amps affect the frequency response.
Iām not personally in a position to do an objective comparison myself, as I donāt have any of the necessary equipment. Iād love to think that I can get more out of my Susvara by getting a more powerful amp. I could totally justify doing that. Is it impossible to demonstrate how the Susvara changes with tiers of amplification beyond subjective analysis, and if it isnāt, wouldnāt that be interesting to explore?
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First, itās not clear to me that Zeos remembers his thoughts and opinions after 15 minutes or so. Iād not consider him a reliable source. YMMV.
What you are getting is nuanced perceptual effects (there is a science of this), and changes that may (1) not be clearly measured, or (2) not produce data that corresponds to what people value in music.
FR is static, music is sequential and cannot exist without a time dimension. As such, transitions are extremely important: how well does a DAC/amp setup shift from moment to moment to moment? Some amps that measure well (e.g., THX/Topping) donāt sound smooth or much like natural music to me.
Thatās a straight up comparison, but again FR is unlikely to capture nuances over time.
Nope, not at all impossible. Itās a psychoacoustics scientific task and very well documented. Itās way more sophisticated than mere āsubjectivity.ā
Many facets of individual experience can be inferred through a wide range of perceptual test methods, such as signal detection, discrimination (e.g., AB or ABX), fatigue, as well as hooking people up to ERP and fMRI machines to track physiological and neurological changes. Human perception can deviate from electrical measurements (e.g., FR, SINAD, etc.) too, so multiple sources aof evidence and methods are required for the most valuable scientific insights.
Audiophiles donāt do this much, but it can be done.
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